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i' COMMUNIST AQIiyiTIES IN THE
CHICAGO AREA-PART 1
(UNITED ELECTRICAL, RADIO AND MACHINE WORKERS OF AMERICA;
AND FARM EQUIPMENT WORKERS COUNCIL, UERMWA)
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
SEPTEMBER 2 AND 3, 1952
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
24044 WASHINGTON : 1952 •
\
i
p^S) 1- ^
U. S. SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania HAROLD H. VELDB, Illinois
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California
JAMES B. FRAZIER, JR., Tennessee CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan
Prank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Louis J. Russell, Senior Ir.vestigator
John W. Carrington, Clerk of Committee
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research
n
CONTENTS
September 2, 1052— Page
Testimony of :
Lee Limdgren 3623
Irving Krane 3653
Ernest DeMaio 3667
September .".. 1952—
Testimony of :
John' T. Bernard 3683
Francis William McBain 3699
Alcide Thomas Kratz 3707
Grant W. Oakes "I
Gerald Fielde [ 3718
DeWitt Gilpin J
John Edward Cooke 3720
Donald O. Spencer 3737
m
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA— PAET I
(United Electrical, Kadio and Machine "Workers of America; and
Farm Equipment Workers Council, UERMWA)
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBEE 2, 1952
United States House or Representatives,
SUBC03IMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE
ON Un-American Activities,
Chicago^ lU.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
pursuant to notice at 10 : 35 a. m. in room 237, Federal Building, 219
South Clark Street, Chicago, 111., Hon. John S. Wood (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives John S. Wood,
Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder, James B. Frazier, Jr., Harold
H. Velde, and Donald L. Jackson (appearance as noted in transcript) .
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas
W. Beale, Sr., assistant counsel ; Donald T. Appell, William Jackson
Jones, Robert B. Barker, and Alvin Stokes, investigators ; and John
W. Carrington, clerk.
Mr. Wood. Let us have order, please.
Mr. Reporter, will you please let the record show that acting under
authority of the resolution establishing the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities, of the House of Representatives, I have set up a sub-
committee for the purpose of conducting hearings in Chicago, com-
jDosed of the following members : Representatives Francis E. Walter,
Morgan M. Moulder, James B. Frazier, Jr., Harold H. Velde, Donald
L. Jackson, and myself as chairman. All of these members are present
with the exception of Mr. Jackson. I am advised that he will report
here at noon.
This committee in the past has made extensive investigation of
fascism in this country. When the Communist Party was publicly
supporting Hitler during the period of the Stalin-Hitler pact, this
committee was making extensive investigations of nazism. In the
past few years, much of the committee's time has been devoted to the
investigation of communism, which is inspired and directed by an
international conspiracy.
Many forms of the Communist conspiracy, including that of espio-
nage by foreign agents, have been brought to light by this committee,
and in its efforts to carry out the duties imposed upon it by the Con-
gress, this committee has investigated and exposed Communist infiltra-
tion into the entertainment, educational, governmental, labor, and
other fields of endeavor.
3621
3622 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Investigations conducted in Baltimore, Md., the State of Massa-
chusetts, the State of Michigan, and other places, disclose a pattern
of Communist concentration in major defense areas of the country.
How the Communist Party has used its members employed in industry
to keep the national organization of the Communist Party and the
international Communist movement fully advised of industrial poten-
tialities, how the Communist Party has sought to colonize defense
industry, and how the Communist Party has endeavored to infiltrate
and control labor unions in defense areas, is described in the testimony
of many witnesses who have appeared before this committee.
Anticipating, from our experience in holding hearings of this type
in other places, the smear campaign which will be directed against
this committee by the Communist slander apparatus, I wish to point
out that this investigation began in January of 1952, and that during
June of this year the committee took action fixing the date for this
hearing, thus disproving the charge of the Daily Worker and other
segments of the Communist apparatus that this hearing was timed by
the committee for the express purpose of interfering with labor nego-
tiations. The committee is not interested in internal disputes within
labor or in disputes between management and labor, but individuals
engaged in union activities enjoy no greater immunity from investi-
gation regarding subversive conduct or activities than individuals
employed in the entertainment field, or education, or the Government,
or any other of the professions. The committee has succeeded to a
marked degree in exposing Communist infiltration into certain labor
unions with the result m many instances that the local unions involved
have rid themselves of Communist domination and influence. In
other instances, local unions have endorsed and supported the com-
mittee's work.
An examination of the decisions of the Comintern, Eed Interna-
tional of Labor Unions, and the Central Committee of the Commu-
nist Party of the United States, shows that the most important task,
and I quote from the Communist, official organ of the Communist
Party of the United States, is —
to shift the center of granty of the daily activity of onr party, unions, and op-
position groups, to the shops and factory— to make the factories, mines, mills,
and ships our fortress.
If it be true that the Communist Party of the United States is en-
deavoring in this area to use labor unions and its members for the
financial and moral support of the Communist program, and if it
be true that the Communist Party of the United States is endeavoring
to use the rank-and-file members of labor unions to promote and ad-
vance the Communist Party program, the Congress of the United
States is entitled to that information in order that it may take proper
legislative action, designed to protect the internal security of this
country. These are specific subjects of inquiry for the committee's
consideration at this and other sessions of the committee which are
likely to be held, on the nature, extent, character, and objects of Com-
munist activities in the Chicago defense area.
The committee-baiting section of the Communist Party charges
that this committee, in conducting these hearings, is motivated by a
desire to raise racial issues. This typical propaganda effort on the
part of the Communist Party has been worn threadbare. The com-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3623
mittee deplores exploitation of racial groups by the Communist Party
or any other group. This committee believes in the basic integrity,
character, and loyalty of all Americans, regardless of race or creed.
I would like also at this time, before beginning the hearing, to make
this announcement to the public :
We are here at the direction of the Congress of the United States,
trying to discharge a duty and obligation that has been placed upon
us by the Congress. No one who is present or who will be present in
this room during the hearings, except the witnesses who are sub-
penaed, is required to be here. You are here by the permission of this
committee and not by its compulsion. This committee will not coun-
tenance any attempt or effort on the part of anyone to make any dem-
onstration, either favorable or unfavorable, toward the committee's
undertaking or to what any person called as a witness may have to say.
I do not mean to say this in any spirit of threat, but if such conduct
should occur, I am going to promptly ask the officers to eject those who
start or attempt to start any demonstration in the room, and if neces-
sary, clear the entire room.
Mr. Counsel, are you ready to proceed ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
I would like to call as the first witness Mr. Lee Lundgren.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Lundgren, will you come forward, please, sir ? Will
you raise your right hand and be sworn, sir?
Do you solemnly swear the evidence you give this subcommittee shall
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Lundgren. I do.
Mr. Wood. Have a seat, sir.
TESTIMONY OF LEE LUNDGREN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
HAROLD A. KATZ
Mr. Wood. You are represented by counsel, sir ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; I am.
Mr. Wood. Will counsel please, for the record, identify himself, giv-
ing his business address?
Mr. Katz. Harold A. Katz, 7 South Dearborn Street, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Lundgren, during the progi^ess of your examination
liere, you are at perfect liberty to confer with your counsel as often
as you may see fit and seek such information from him as you feel
yourself in need of ; and he is at perfect liberty to confer with you and
advise you at any time that he feels it proper.
Mr. Tam=:nner. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. Lundgren. Lee Lundgren.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lundgren, I believe you have been under sub-
pena by the committee since the 21st day of March 1950, at one time
or other, have you not?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. And your appearance here is pursuant to a subpena
served upon you last week ; is that not true ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct, and I am only here in response to
that subpena that has been served upon me.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Lundgren ?
3624 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. LuNDGREN. Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your birth ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. July 17, 1915.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain to the committee briefly what your
educational training has been ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I had 4 years of high school, a year of college,
and approximately a year at night school.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us a brief statement of your occupa-
tional background?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Presently or
Mr. Tavenner. Let us begin at the period of the beginning of your
work in labor.
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I was working at the Goodman Manufactur-
ing Co., and the plant was organized by the United Electrical Work-
ers Union there ; and sometime shortly after that I went to work with
the United Electrical Workers Union as a field representative.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you fix the period when you were employed
by Goodman Manufacturing Co.?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I started there approximately in 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. And you continued to work there how long ?
Mr. Lundgren. Until approximately 1945, somewhere in that gen-
eral vicinity, and I went to work for the UE full-time around 1945
or 1946, and I worked with the UE until January 7, I believe it was,
1950, and subsequently went to work with the lUE-CIO, where I
am presently employed.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you state the circumstances under which
you first became employed by the UE in 1945 or 1946 ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I was the chief shop steward in the plant
which had been recently organized, which is tantamount to the high-
est position that a person would hold in a particular plant. The offi-
cials of the UE at that time, Mr. Pat Amato and Irving Krane, asked
me if I would go to work for the UE, and I accepted their oiler and
I went to work for the UE at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. AVhen you were a shop steward, what was the name
of the local ?
Mr. Lundgren. It was an amalgamated local, part of UE Local
1150. Amalgamated means more than one shop in a particular
local.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you went to work as a full-time employee
of theUE?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your employment with
theUE?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I was a field representative, and my job con-
sisted of negotiating contracts, and Avhat we call servicing the various
shops in the local, taking care of grievances, arbitration cases, and so
on like that, and doing some organizing, too.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you were organizer of the UE, did
you hold an official position in any other organization?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, as field representative, I also had been elected
as, not full-time, but secretary-treasurer of the local union.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was the number of the local union ?
Mr. Lundgren. Local 1150.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3625
]Mr. Tavenner. Well, diiriiia- the i)eriod you held those positions,
were you also a member of another organization ?
Mr. LuxDGREN. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that organization?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party before
3'ou were asked to become a full-time employee of the UE?
Mr. Lundgren. No; I was not.
Mr. Tavenner. How long after you became an employee of the
UE was it that you became a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, approximately 3 to 6 months after I went
on the staff, I signed an application card for the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what part the Communist Party
or any of its members had in the initial effort to get you into the
UE as full-time employee?
Mr. Lundgren. As it turned out, the two people that asked me to
become a full-time member of the UE were members of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they?
Mr. Lundgren. Irving Krane and Pat Amato.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, just how you
were recruited into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Pat Amato, who was then the president of the UE
local 1150, had talked to me over a period of time about joining the
Communist Party, and told me that they would teach me a lot of things
about the trade-union movement and the role of the Communists in
the trade-union movement; and that they would send me to a Com-
munist Party school if I joined up and signed with the Communist
Party.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left hearing room.)
Mr. Ta%t:nner. You stated that he had spoken to you a number
of times, over a period of time, about those matters. Over how long a
period of time would you say ?
Mr. Lundgren. Approximately a month or so.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of those inducements, you became a
member of the party ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of the party ?
Mr. Lundgren. A little over 3 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the date when you left the party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes. I sent a letter of resignation to the Commu-
nist Party and to the UE, both ; I believe the date was January 7, 1950.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time that j^ou withdrew from the party, did
you make a public statement as to the reasons for your w^ithdrawal
and the circumstances under which you withdrew ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an article, a news release, purporting to
be a statement by you, bearing date of January 7, 1950, and I will ask
you to examine it and state whether or not that is the statement which
you made at the time of your withdrawal from the Communist Party.
(The document was examined by the witness.)
Mr. Lundgren. That is a true statement.
Mr. Tavenner. May I have it, please?
3626 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer this statement in evidence and ask
that it be marked as "Lundgren Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Wood. It is so ordered.
(The document above referred to, marked "Lundgren Exhibit No.
1," filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. And with the committee's permission I would like
to read it into the record.
Chicago, III., January 7, 1950.
News Release — Statement by Lee Lundgren
•
As of this date I have handed in my resignations both as a field representative
of local 1150, UE, and as a member of the Communist Party.
As a trade-unionist, I have found that I could not serve two masters. My
participation in the Communist Party made it impossible for me to properly serve
the interests of the workers in building- a democratic union, controlled by the
membership, and devoted exclusively to the welfare of the rank and file. I am
now completely convinced that the Communists are leading the UE workers
down the drain.
My conclusions are based on the experiences accumulated since 1944, when
I was instrumental in helping to bring the plant in which I was working into
the UE, and in my successive capacities as chief steward at Goodman Manu-
facturing, as secretary-treasurer of local 1150 for 4 years, and as a full-time
field representative for the local union since 1945.
Shortly after going to work as a field representative for the UE I was re-
cruited into the Communist Party by Pat Amato, president of local 11,50, UE.
I joined the party at the time I did because I was told that the Communist
Party was serving the best interests of the workers, and that by joining the
party I could assist the workers better in their day-to-day problenis.
As a party member I participated in many private Communist Party meet-
ings with many other UE officials in which the internal affairs of the UE were
openly discussed and planned. In these meetings it was made very clear that
serving the interests of the Communist Party were primary, and came ahead of
the welfare of the union.
Present at these Communist Party meetings were Local President Pat Amato;
Alice Smith, the secretary of UB District Council, No. 11; Fred Dutner, a UE
international field organizer ; and Sam Kushner, a Communist Party organizer,
among many others.
It was at such Communist Party meetings in the recent past that it was ruled
that Irving Krane was "politically unreliable" and that Fred Dutner should
be the candidate for local 1150 business manager.
The recent statement of Pat Amato that Irving Krane was not proposed for
the post of business manager because he is "incompetent" is a typical Com-
munist lie. I know from my years in the local that Krane negotiated the best
contracts in local 1150, and the record will very easily prove that fact.
Furthermore, to my knowledge Fred Dutner never negotiated a union contract
in his life.
The plot to oust Krane from a leading position in our local was only the last
item in a long list which has finally convinced me that the LIE is utterly in-
capable of acting as an honest trade-union. Furthermoi-e, never in my long
experience with the UE has Ernest DeMaio. president of district 11, ever op-
posed the decisions of the Communist Party to determine the affairs of the UE.
I therefore urge the members of the UE to free themselves from Communist
domination by seeking aflfiliation with the CIO, and I am prepared to assist
them to the fullest extent of my ability.
Lee Lundgren.
Now, Mr. Lundgren, reference is made in that statement to Pat
Amato. Is he still connected with the UE to your knowledge ?
Mr. Lundgren. As far as I know, yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what position he now holds ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't know what his official position is at the
present time.
COMI^'roNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3627
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you were recruited into the Communist
Party by Pat Amato and others, as you have described, were you as-
signed to any particular group, branch, or cell of the party ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I was assigned to what we call the Parsons Club,
the Parsons Branch or Club.
Mr, Tavenner. Do you know how the club obtained its name?
Mr. LuNDGREN-. Weil, the Parsons Branch was the branch in which
all of the Communist Party members of the UE were assigned in the
Chicago area.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Pat Amato a member of that groux3 or cell?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke in the course of your release about a
person by the name of Irving Krane. Was he a member of that
branch ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. At that time he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Irving Krane has since left
the Communist Party?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Irving Krane did leave the Communist Party,
if I remember correctly, about October of 1949.
( Representative Velde returned to the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether a person by the name of
Julia Gudinas — was she a member of that group ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes; she was.
Mr. Ta^tsnner. Florence Criley?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; she was.
Mr. Tavenner. Her husband, Richard Criley ?
Mr. Lundgren. Richard Criley, if I remember correctly, was an
official of the Communist Party in the State of Illinois, not neces-
sarily associated with our branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what official position he held
Mr. Lundgren. I don't recall his official position.
Mr. Tavenner. At that time ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't recall his official position; no.
Mr. Tx\\t:nner. Ruth Levitova?
Mr. Lundgren. Ruth Levitova was also a member of the Conmiu-
nist Party at that time ; it was the Parsons Branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she a member of the Parsons Branch?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; she was also on the staff as a field represent-
ative in our particular local at that time.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Do 5^ou recall the names of any other persons from
UE who were members of the Parsons Branch at the time you became
a member?
Mr. Lundgren*. I think that is all at that particular time; there
were others subsequent to that time, but when I actually joined I
think that that is all I can remember.
(Representative Wood left the room at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names of others who united with
that branch of the party while you were a member, or are you in a
position to differentiate those from other Communist Party members
with whom you met generally ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't quite understand your question.
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking whether it was difficult for you to dis-
tinguish between persons who became members of the Parsons Branch
3628 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
after you joined and persons who were members of the Communist
Party and with whom you met in Communist Party meetings? What
I mean to say is if it is difficult for you to determine between the
two classes, I will not press the question at this time as to who were
actually members of this branch, this particular branch,
Mr. LuNDGREN. I would prefer that.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, when you joined this branch of the Com-
munist Party, the Parsons Branch, how were you notified as to where
the meetings would take place ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, usually by phone call or word of mouth or
ma^'be a small little note or something like that, and evei'ything was
very secret as to wliere the meetings were actually going to be held.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were the meetings held ?
Mr. Ltjndgren. The meetings were usually held in the homes of
some of the Communist Party people.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the meetings ever held in the union hall ?
Mr. Lundgren. There was one held at the union hall and after
that meeting it was deemed that it wasn't for the best of the people
concerned to have any additional meetings at the union hall.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, explain that, please. What was the reason
for that?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, for example, we had this Communist Party
meeting in the hall, at the UE hall, at 37 South Ashland, I believe it
was, and somebody happened to open the door to the room by mistake
and it looked kind of odd to see a small group of people meeting in a
union hall when there wasn't any meeting scheduled for our particular
local union at that time. We thought it would create a lot of sus-
picion.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, by suspicion do you mean that the rank-and-
file members of the union would have objected to the use of its facilities
for holding of Communist Party meetings if they had known the true
purpose ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Then does tliat mean that the members of the Com-
munist Party endeavored to conceal their Communist Party member-
ship from the rank and file of the union which they were attempting to
lead?
Mr. Lundgren. Absolutely ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And because of the danger of exposing the Com-
munist influence that was being brought to bear upon the union, you
decided not to hold any fui'ther meetings in the union hall?
Mr. Lundgren. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall at this time the names of the per-
sons in whose homes the Communist Party meetings of the Parsons
Branch were held ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, there were two homes that we met in pretty
consistently and one Avas the home of Florence Criley, who at that
time I think lived at 4107 West Arthington Street, and the other home
was that of Willie Mae Smith, and I believe her address was 333 East
Sixtieth Street.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what official position, if any, Willie
Mae Smith held?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3629
Mr. LuNDGREN. Willie Mae Smith was the recording secretary of
local 1150 for quite some time. However, she resigned that position
when the local union went on record and signed the non-Communist
affiidavits and she resigned from the office of recording secretary
rather than sign the non-Communist affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Willie Mae Smith hold any official position
in the Communist Party ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I don't recall any official position ; she was a mem-
ber of her branch.
Mr. Tavexner. Now. what official position in the union was held
by Florence Criley, if any ?
" Mr. LuNDGREN.' Well, Florence Criley at one time was a member or
was an organizer on the international staff and later on she became a
trustee of our local union and she had done some work on a voluntary
basis, I understand, in some of the shops and then I think she was put
into other shops on a subsidy basis by the local union as a sort of an
organizer.
]Mr. Tavenner. Did Irving Krane hold any position with the UE
at that time ?
Mr. LuNDCiREN. Irving Krane was the business manager of UE local
1150.
Mr. Tavenner. And Julia Gudinas, or her husband, what position
did either hold, if any ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Weil, Julia Gudinas — I am sorry. Will you reframe
that question?
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether Julia Gudinas held an official
position in the union?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; for some time she w^as recording secretary to
the local, and later on she was the trustee of local union 1150, UE.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Ruth Levitova hold an official position in
theUE?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; when I went to work for the UE she was a field
representative on the UE local 1150 staff.
Mr. Tavenner. Then all of the members of the Parsons Branch were
officials of the UE ; that is, all of the members at the time you united
with it?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, of those people that I remember, they were
officials of the local union, there were others who I can't recall at the
present time.
Mr. Tavenner. Were those persons whose names you have men-
tioned as holding positions in the UE salaried employers of the UE?
Were they receiving salaries for their work ?
Mr. Lundgren. You would have to distinguish between them be-
cause some were and some were not.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe which were and which were not?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, Irving Krane as^business manager was a paid
employee of the union.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it a f idl-time employment ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; he was, and Pat Amato was president of the
local union and that was a full-time position, and he was salaried by
the local union. Ruth Levitova was the field representative of the
local union and therefore paid a salary by the UE local 1150, and
that is all of the full-time people that I remember.
3630 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. And you were paid a salary as a full-time employee
of theUE?
Mr. LuNDGREN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were any of the persons whose names I have men-
tioned as employees of UE paid for any of their services rendered by
them to the Communist Party by the Communist Party, to your
knowledge ?
Let me rephrase the question : At the time that these various em-
ployees of the UE were receiving salaries from the UE, were they also
receiving salaries or compensation for services rendered by them to
the Communist Party?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I don't know whether they were or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you?
Mr. Lundgren. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Would it have been possible for you to have per-
formed your services or services that you were asked to perform for
the Communist Party if you had not been at the same time receiving
a living salary from the UE ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes.
Mr. IC\Tz. Would you reread that question?
Mr. Tavenner. Let me explain the purpose of my question a little
further, and it might clear your understanding of it. I want to find
out, if I can, to what extent the Communist Party was endeavoring to
get its own members paid for work being performed for the Com-
munist Party by having their members placed in high positions in
labor where they would receive salaries from the unions. Have I
made that clear?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I couldn't have existed if I didn't have a
salary from the UE, I was working full time and that was my only
income.
Mr. Ta\^nner. And therefore you would not have been in a position
where you could have rendered any valuable service to the Com-
munist Party if you hadn't been sustained by a salary from the union ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And isn't that true of all of the other organizers of
the UE who have been shown to be active Communist Party members?
Mr. Lundgren. Of the people that I knew ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I don't want to ask you what your union was
paying you as a salary, but I do want to know whether the Com-
munist Party paid you anything in the way of expense money or sal-
ary or compensated you in any way for anything the Communist Party
asked you to do or anything you did for it.
Mr. Lundgren. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the Communist Party
had a branch composed solely of persons who were affiliated with local
1150?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; they did.
Mr. Tavenner. Then that would be a separate branch, would it,
from the Parsons Branch ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; we had a separate branch for members of UE
local 1150.
Mr. Tavenner. What name did it bear?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't remember.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3631
Mr. Tavenner. How many members did it have ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, it varied from time to time, we sometimes
had as little as 5 and sometimes w^had as many as 25 or 30, and there
was quite a bit of turn-over.
Mr. Tavenner. From what class or group of the members of local
1150, I might say what level were the members of that branch, that
is, were they rank-and-file members, and were they officers of 1950?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, there were some rank-and-file members, and
others were officers of the local union.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any of the meetings of those
branches ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes; I did.
Mr. Ta\^nner. How many groups or branches were organized
within 1150, local 1150?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, again it varied, and we had for a while there
we had one single club of everybody in UE local 1150 and then it
seemed advisable to break it up into smaller groups, and then we had,
I believe, three groups within 1150.
Mr. Taa'enner. What was the largest number you think of groups
within 1150 at any one time?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Various branches, you mean ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. LuNDGREN. It was either three or four.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell me what shops or plants local 1150
had contracts at that time?
Mr. LuNDGREN. At that particular time, you mean?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lundgren. Now, is this going back to before 1950 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; back at the time that you are speaking of
when you first became a member of the Communist Party and shortly
thereafter.
(Representative John S. Wood returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
Mr. Lundgren. I am not exactly clear just what you want. You
want the plants in the UE now or do you want the plants that were
in the UE at the time I went to work for them ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I mean in the question for you to confine it to
the plants with which the UE held contracts at the time these various
locals or branches existed in 1150, that you just testified about, these
branches of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lundgren. I can give you some, but I can't give you all. Our
local union lost quite a few shops during the period of between 1948
and 1950, and it is a little hard for me to remember all of them.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; I understand the difficulty of it, but just give
us those that you are certain about.
Mr. Lundgren. At that time ?
Mr. Tavenner. At that time ; yes.
Mr. Lundgren. Well, there was A^lieelco Instrument Co., which is
presently in the lUE, CIO, and Tliordason Electric.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, please?
Mr. Lundgren, T-h-o-r-d-a-s-o-n Electric, and that shop also left
the UE and went to the lUE, CIO; and American Condenser Co.,
which is still in the UE, I believe. The Cinch Manufacturing Co.,
3632 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
and there is the GM Laboratory Co., which I presume is still IJE.
Goodman Manufacturing Co., which is still UE. Jenson Radio
Manufacturing Co., still in the UE. Pioneer GE Motors. It was
Pioneer and then GE, and Generaf JNIotors, which is still in the UE,
I assume. Standard X-ray Co and the William H. Welch Co. It is
still in the UE.
Another shop I recall is the Chicago Transformer, AThicli the UE
lost, and I understand there is no union in the plant at the present
time. Sunbeam was also in the local at that time, which I under-
stand has a contract with another union, and it is no longer UE.
(Representative Francis E. AValter left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. LuNDGREN (continuing) . That is all I recall at the present time.
Mr. Tavennek. Now, that covered the period roughly between 1945
and 1948, did it not?
Mr. LuNDGREN. That is correct. I am sure there are a number of
other shops that were in our local union, because we had at one time
7,200 members, and in around January 1, 1950, we only had about
2,500 members.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether a substantial number of these
plants were engaged in work or contracts for tlie national defense of
the country ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, are you going back to World War II •
Mr. Tavenner. Through the period 1945 to 1948.
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; a number of them had defense contracts ; for
example, at Goodman Manufacturing Co. where I was employed, I
know they did have defense contracts.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us whether the unions which worked
in any of these separate plants were separately organized by the Com-
munist Party into cells or branches or whether there was just a few
over-all branches that went into the various cells ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, for example, we had a special club at Sun-
beam for Sunbeam workers who were members of the Communist
Party, had then we had what we considered a North Side Branch
where the shops that were on the north side would belong to a particu-
lar club and then we had the south side and the west side belonging to
another group on the south side of the city.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Well, how was the Communist Party line brought
down to the various cells or how were the Communist Party directives
imparted to those cells ?
5lr. Lundgren. Well, we have often had. some of the top leaders
of the Communist Party attend our meetings. Even when they did
not attend the meetings, why, whoever had the job as educational
director for that particular club would have a mimeographed copy of
an order or plan or whatever it might be, whatever the thing might
be at the time, and they would bring this to the club and then report
from that directive they received from the Communist Party
headquarters.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were some of these high-level functionaries
of the Communist Party who attended your meetings and imparted
the Communist directives or line ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I remember Gil Green attending some of our
meetings.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3633
Mr. Tavenner. What position did lie hold?
Mr. LuNDGREN. He was chairman of the Illinois State Committee
of the Communist Party ; and Fred Fine, F-i-n-e, I guess that is the
spelling, who was, I think, labor secretary of the Communist Party
in the State of Illinois for a while.
Mr. Tavenner. Do 3^ou know whether both Fine and Green are at
the present time fugitives ?
Mr. Lundgren. I understand they are fugitives from justice at the
present time. In addition, there is Max Weiss, who I remember at-
tended a meeting at the home of Flo Hall, who was also a member of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to ask you if any of the following-named
persons who Avere alleged to be members of the UE attended any Com-
nnmist Party meetings at which you were present ?
Mr. Lundgren. I am sorry, sir, I didn't get your question.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to ask you whether or not the persons whose
names I am going to call attended Communist Party meetings at
which you were present.
Now, the first one I want to ask about is Willie Mae Smith.
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; she was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Now the next is Florence Hall.
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; she was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether or not she held a position in
the district executive board of the Communist Party of Illinois ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; she did.
]SIr. Tavenner. Betty Verri, V-e-r-r-i?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes we held some of our meetings at the home of
Betty Verri, with the Communist Party members.
Mv. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with her husband ?
ISIr. Lundgren. Yes, I met Al Verri at the home while the Com-
munist Party meetings were going on.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what position he held with the Farm
Equipment Workers ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; he was an organizer, a staff representative for
the Farm Equipment Workers, which is now merged with the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned in the course of }*juy statement of
January 7 the name of Fred Dutner, a UE international field organ-
izer. Was he known to you to be a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes, Fred Dutner was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you attended Communist Party meetings with
him?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Jim Dawkins.
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; he was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Thomas Brown, Jr. ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; he was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Lottie Glicker?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; she was a member of the Communist Party,
or she was, I should say.
Mr. Tavenner. Jack Birch ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; Jack Birch was a member of the Communist
Party.
24044— 52— pt. 1-
3634 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what position he held ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. He was the business manager of it, president, I
believe, of UE local 1119. He was also a member of the section com-
mittee of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. In what general work were the members of local
1119 engaged?
Mr. LuNDGREN. They had a separate local of their own.
Mr. Tavenner. What shops did they have contracts with, if you
know?
Mr. LuNDGREN. UE local 1119 had Allied Industrial Co., Brunswick
Radio Co., General Laminated Co. Brand Sheetmetal, Jennet Manu-
facturing Co., L. Hommedieu, H-o-m-m-e-d-i-e-u Co. It is the Mark
Stone Manufacturing Co., Pastche Air Brush Co., United Motor Serv-
ice Co. That is all I remember in 1119.
Mr, Tavenner. Were any of those companies engaged in the filling
of defense contracts during the period 1945 to 1948, or even to 1950?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Pasco Soso ?
Mr. Lundgren. Pasco Soso was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what local he was connected with ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes, he was president of UE local 1114.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what plants or shops did that local have con-
tracts with ?
Mr. Lundgren. UE local 1114. Alberg Bearing, American Corp.,
Armstrong Blum, Bamback Manufacturing Co., Bradfoot Gear Co.,
Chicago Metal Co., Combustion Engineering Co., Excelsior Tool &
Die Works, Hansome Scale Co., D. O. James Gear Co., Hubbard Spool
Co., John Wood Manufacturing Co.
(Representative John S. Wood returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Lundgren (continuing). Midwest Tool Co., Miehle Printing
Press Co., Minneapolis-Honeywell Regulator Co., Armatrude Ma-
chine, Onsrud, and Skelley Jones Co.
That is all I remember at the present time.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Frank Allen a member of the Communist
Party, to your knowledge?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; Frank Allen was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I would like for you, if you know, to state
whether any of these people withdrew from the Communist Party,
if they did withdraw.
Let me rephrase the question : If any of the persons that I asked
you about have withdrawn from the Communist Party to your knowl-
edge, I would like for you to so state.
Mr. Lundgren. Yes, I will.
Mr. Tavenner. Up to this point have any of these persons with-
drawn from the Communist Party as far as you know?
Mr. Lundgren. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. What local was Frank Allen connected with?
Mr. Lundgren. Frank Allen was on the international staff as an
organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Jolni T. Bernard — was he a member of the Com-
munist Party, to your knowledge?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; he was.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3635
Mr. Tavenner. What position did he hold in the union?
Mr. LuNDGKEN. John Bernard was a field organizer and also the
political action director for district 11 of the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. Milton Burns?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Milton Burns also was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. What official position did he hold with UE?
Mr. LuNDGREN. He was an international representative for the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you know that Milton Ikirns and these
other persons whose names you have mentioned Avere members of
the party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, all of these people whose names so far I have
seen them at Communist Party meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Were those meetings in which the Communist Party
matters were discussed and acted upon ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were these meetings to which you refer meetings
in the nature of the closed meetings of the Communist Party, or were
they meetings which the public could attend?
Mr. Lundgren. They were closed meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Harry Freed. Are you acquainted with him?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; I know Harry Freed.
Mr. Tavenner. What official position did he hold ?
Mr. LuNGREN. Harry Freed was at one time an acting business
agent of UE local 1119 and was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name of
Ned Gorgolinski, G-o-r-g-o-l-i-n-s-k-i ?
Mr. liUNDGREN. Yes, I was; he was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know that ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, Ned Gorgolinski at one time was vice presi-
dent of UE local 1150 and was in the same party branch that I was in
for a long time.
j\Ir. Tavenner. You mean the Parsons branch ?
Mr. Lundgren. Mike Karpa was also a member of the Communist
Party, and he was, I guess he was on the international staff and also
associated with UE local 1119, brother-in-law of Ernie DeMaio.
Mr. Tavenner. John S. Kelliher.
Mr. Lundgren. John Kelliher was the president of the Local 1151:,
which was the UE local at Stuart- Warner before the UE lost that.
Mr. Tavenner. Melvin Krantzler.
Mr. Lundgren. He was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Do you recall what his official position was?
Mr. Lundgren. Krantzler was research director for UE district 11.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know he was a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Melvin Krantzler was educational director for our
branch for a time.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the Parsons branch ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Ina LaMaux.
Mr. Lundgren. Ina LaMaux was a member of the Communist Party,
but to the best of my knowledge she left the Communist Party.
3636 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. At the time she was a member did she hold any offi-
cial position in the UE ?
Mr. LtiN DGREN. Yes ; she was first vice president.
Mr. Tavenner. Raynal Lofgren.
Mr. Lundgren. Ray Lofgren was for a short period of time a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, but he definitely left the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavener. Bernard J. McDonough.
Mr. Lundgren. I don't remember McDonough, whether he was a.
member of the Communist Party or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Henry Meihs.
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what official position he held in the
Mr. Lundgren. I am sorry ; I can't hear you.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what official position he held in the
UE?
Mr. Lundgren. Henry Meihs ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lundgren. Henry Meihs was a field representive for the UE
Local 1114 at one time.
Mr. Tavenner. Art Rhodes, R-h-o-d-e-s.
Mr. Lundgren. Art Rhodes was also a member of the Parson Club.
Mr. Tavenner. Robert Scott.
Mr. Lundgren. Robert Scott was also a member of the Parsons Club.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what local he was a member of ?
Mr. Lundgren. UE" Local 1150.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the plants or shops with which Local
1150 had contracts ?
Mr. Lundgrten. I believe I named them.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you name those for 1150?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct,
Mr. Tavenner. William J. Sheehan.
Mr. Lundgren. William J. Sheehan was also a member of the
Communist Party and an international representative for the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do you base your statement that Mr. Shee-
Jian was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Bill Sheehan also attended meetings, the same meet-
ings that I attended, of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Adam Smith.
Mr. Lundgren. Adam Smith also was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did Adam Smith hold in the union?
Mr. Lundgren. At one time he was vice president of UE Local 1119.
Mr. Tavenner. Alice Smith.
Mr. Lundgren, Alice Smith was also a member of the Communist
Party, and she was a member of the section branch, the section com-
mittee of the Communist Party of the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "the section committee"?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, the section committee was a committee made
up of the representatives from the various clubs; in other words, the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3637
section committee would liave members from UE Local 1150, UE
Local 1119, UE Local 1114, and the other UE locals who were in the
UE at that time. And Alice Smith was at that time vice president
of the district 11 UE.
Mr. Tavenner. Walter Stempel, S-t-e-m-p-e-1.
Mr. LuNDGREN. Walter Stempel was also a member of the Com-
jnunist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. On what do yon base your statement ?
T^Ir. LuNDGREN. AValter Stempel attended some of the meetings that
I did in the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Louis Torre.
Mr. LuNDGREN. Louis Torre was not a member of the same branch
that I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, you are unable to say?
Mr. LuxDGREN. I am unable to identify him as a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Leo Turner.
Mr. LuNDGREN. Leo Turner, who is now with the Packing House
W^orkers, was also a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know that ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Leo Turner attended some of the Communist Party
meetings that I attended.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, all of the persons whose names you have iden-
tified as members of the Communist Party were members of the UE ;
were they not ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, during the course of your experience as a
member of the Communist Party, did you meet in Communist Party
meetings with other persons known to you to be members of the party
who were not members of the UE ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Would that include high functionaries from the
:State of Illinois ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. That is, high functionaries in the Communist Party.
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were some of those high functionaries, and
under what circumstances did you meet them?
Mr. LuNDGREN". Well, as I previously testified, I met Gil Green,
Fred Fine, and Max AVeiss. I met another person by the name of
Edward Brown, who also used the name, as I understand, of Ed Star,
who was Illinois State secretary of the Communist Party. I met
Eichard Criley, who I believe had something to do with the educational
division of the Communist Party in the State of Illinois, and at whose
home we had some of our meetings; David Engelstein, who also was
one of the top officials of the Illinois State Communist Party; and
Sam Hammersmark, who operates the Modern Bookstore.
JMr. Ta\'enner. Where does he operate that store ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, the last I remember it was on Washington
Street, and I don't remember the exact address.
Mr. Tavenner. In the city of Chicago?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes. It was Irving Herman, who also attended
some of our meetings.
3638 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you name other persons ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well
Mr. Tavenner. Who were not members of UE, but whom you
learned to know as members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. There was Leon Katzen, who was a full-time func-
tionary of the Communist Party, who was also on the UE staff at the
recommendation of Ernest DeMaio for a short period of time. Sam
Kushner was business manager of UE Local 1119, and he resigned
from that position and went to work full-time for the Communist
Party; and Claude Liglitfoot and Herbert March. William L. Pat-
terson was a director of the Abraham Lincoln School at the time, and
William Sentner of the Chicago Star when it was in existence. Luther
Talley
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. What position did William Sent-
ner have with the Chicago Star ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I believe he was publicity director at some official
capacity with the Chicago Star.
Tr. Tavenner. Now, these persons whose names you have men-
tioned, other than the officials on a high level, and whom you say were
members of the Communist Party, were known to j^ou as Communist
members on what basis ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, vou mean where I met these people?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. How did you know them ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, at Comm.unist Party meetings, sometimes the
higher section committee meetings. Communist Party school that I
attended, various Communist Party affairs that wei'e strictly for Com-
munist Party members only.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you meet Luther Talley at the Com-
munist Party school ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet James Tate at the Communist Party
school ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Alfred Wagenknecht ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; t was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lundgren. He was one of the top officials of the Illinois State
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Abe Feinglass?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What was his position within the union?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, he was regional director, or had some title
like that, of the Fur and Leather Worliers' Union.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Mv. Lundgren. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the basis of your knoAvledge?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, at that time Abe Feinglass was an open
Commnnist and admitted publicly that he was a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Tav'enner. Joseph Starobin?
COMMUNIST ACTn^TIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3639
Mr. LuNDGREN. Joseph Starobin is the foreign editor for the Daily
Worker. I attended a hmcheoii at one time with Joseph Starobin as
the principal speaker.
Mr. Tavenner. Bernard Lucas?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes ; he was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he identified with the union ?
Mr. Lundgren. He was an official of the Harry Bridges Long-
shoremen's Union.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you know he was a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Lundgren, I attended Communist Party meetings with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Aaron Bindman?
Mr. Lundgren. Aaron Bindman was also an official of the Long-
shoremen's Union, and was also a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Hilliard Ellis?
Mr. Lundgren. Hilliard Ellis was an official of Local 453 of the
United Auto Workers, as I understand it ; also was an open member
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. You have spoken of local district 11 in the course
of your testimony, and I think it would be well to have at this time
an explanation of the organizational set-up of district 11 of the Com-
munist Party in this area as you understood it.
Mr. Lundgren. District 11 of the UE was the union number given
to tliis area of Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Illinois.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the UE?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes; of the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. Then how many locals of the UE were there in
district 11?
]\Ir. Lundgren. I wouldn't be in a position to know, because there
were quite a few locals up in Minnea])olis ; Milwaukee, Wausau, Wis. ;
and down-State Illinois, and offhand I would not be in a position to
tell you how many locals there were in the entire district.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what the total membership of district
11 of the UE was at that time?
Mr. Lundgren. I believe it was around 40,000.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you break that down and tell us the approxi--
mate membership of the locals which have been the subject of your
testimony up to the present time, that is, 1150, 1119, 1114, that I recall,
and I don't recall that you have named others or any others than those.
Mr. Lundgren. Well, offhand, in about 1950, the time I left the UE,
Local 1114 had about 4,000 members, UE Local 1150 had about 2,500,
and UE Local 1119 had about 1,200.
Mr. Moulder. Were those union members ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Who were the officers of district 11 ?
Mr. Lundgren. At that particular time or the time I left?
Mr. Tavenner. During the time that you were a member of the
Conununist Party.
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I don't recall all of the officers, but I do know
that Ernest DeMaio was the president of the district UE, and Alice
Smith was the— I believe she was the vice president of UE at that
time, district 11. I don't recall the other officers.
3640 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you mentioned the fact in the early part of
your testimony that you attended a meeting in the home of Willie
Mae Smith. Do you recall the date of that meeting ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes, I attended a meeting at the home of Willie
Mae Smith on December 16, 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of the meeting ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. The purpose of this particular meeting was to draw
up a slate of candichites which wouk! be nominated at our regular
union meeting on December 18, 2 days later, and outline the general
program for the membership meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what kind of a meeting was this ? Was this a
committee meeeting of the UE, or was it a meeting of vSome other
organization ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. It was a meeting of the Communist Party to plan
the nominations and the slate of officers that would be nominated at
the regular union meeting.
Mr. Tav-enner. Was that the common practice in the UE, that a
slate of the officers would be selected first by the Communist Party
before being presented to the UE for action ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes; it was.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Now, was such a slate prepared at this meeting of
December 16, 1949 ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that slate presented to the rank and file mem-
bers of the UE at its regular convention or official meeting?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. And was it put over ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any instance in which a person whose
name appeared on that slate was defeated for election?
Mr. LuNDGREN. No. The entire slate w^as selected at the Commu-
nist Party meeting on December 16, was nominated at the union meet-
ing on December 18; and, subsequent to that time, were elected, with-
out an exception.
I also should mention that not all of the people that were selected
by the Communist Party group were members of the Communist
Party. Many times, as in this case, they select non-Communist Party
members to, let us say, give the appearance of respectability to their
slate.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, those persons who were selected in that man-
ner, were they persons who were considered in the light of their
willingness to follow the Communist Party line, although not mem-
bers of it ?
Mr. Luxdgren. I would say that some of the people just didn't
know what was going on, and that the party felt that they wouldn't
have any real opposition from these people, because they were a little
naive of what was going on.
Mr. Ta\t<:nner. Well, will you describe at this point just how that
slate was put over by the Communist Party in the meeting which fol-
lowed your Communist Party meeting ; how did they go about getting
their slate elected?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, also at the Communist Party meeting on
December 16, 1949, they made arrangements or an agreement as to
COMIVnjNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3641
who would nominate certain people, and who would second the nomi-
nation, and the slate was thus selected and nominated.
Mr. Tavenner. The persons selected at the Communist Party meet-
ino- made the nominations from the floor?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, people that were selected by the Communist
Party members, which not necessarily were Communist Party mem-
bers themselves, made nominations, but they made the nominations of
the people who were selected by the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How were the Communist Party members to know
whether or not their choice would be recognized by the chairman?
If the chairman recognized someone else, it would have disrupted the
plan, would it not?
Mr. Lundgren. I would say that the chairman of the meeting didn't
expect any opposition from any particular group, and that as the
people were nominated, or the officers, or it was time for the certain
office to be nominated, that possibly only one hand would be raised
to nominate a particular person for that office. And they also had
people arranged that would move to close the nominations.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the chairman of the meeting at which this
slate was selected ?
Mr. Lundgren! Pat Amato — pardon me. The chairman at what
meeting ?
Mr. Ta^tenner. Of the meeting which elected the slate of officers
chosen by the Communist Party.
Mr. Lundgren. The union meeting?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Lundgren. The union meeting was chaired by Pat Amato.
Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. And Pat Amato
Mr. Lundgren. President of local 1150 at the time.
Mr. Ta\t2nner. And did I understand that Pat Amato was a mem-
ber of the Parsons branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lundgren. Pat Amato had been a member of the Communist
Party up until about October of 1949, at which time he resigiied from
the Communist Party to sign the non-Communist affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, after Pat Amato resigned as a member of
the Communist Party, did he attend any Communist Party meetings,
to your knowledge ?
Mr. Lundgren. Not that I remember.
Mr. Ta\T2nner. Did he have access, to your knowledge, to the action
that the Communist Party took on certain matters at its meetings?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, tell us about that.
Mr. Lundgren. Well, after we would have a Communist Party
meeting, why, the following day I would tell Pat Amato or report to
Pat Amato just exactly Mdiat had gone on at the Communist Party
meeting, to keep him up to date as to what the program was of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. So he was as fully aware of the action of the Com-
munist Party after he withdrew as he was while a member?
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., left hearing room.)
Mr. Lundgren. I advised liim of the meetings. That is all I could
sav on that.
3642 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr, Ta\t2xner. Did you advise him of the meeting at which the
slate was prepared of those who were to be elected as the officers of
the UE ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. So that when he acted as chairman of the UE
meeting, he knew the names of those that had been selected by the
Communist Party at its prior meeting, who were to make the
nominations?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And he also knew who composed the list which was
to be crammed down the throats of the members of the UE ?
Mr. Lundgren. He knew the list in advance.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio was the business manager of local 1150 at the
time of this Communist Party meeting which selected the list of
proposed candidates for UE?
Mr. Lundgren. Irving Krane was the business manager of the local
at that time.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. You have already testified that he was a member
or had been a member of the Communist Party, and.was he a member
at that time?
Mr. Lundgren. No ; he was not. He had resigned in about October.
Mr. Tavenner. And this was in December ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what position did the Communist Party at
this preliminary meeting take with regard to the then present business
manager, Irving Krane?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, in particular, Sam Kushner, who was a full-
time member of the Communist Party, and also Flo Hall, who I have
testified about previously, had said that the Communist Party had
met, the State executive board of tlie Communist Party had met,
and that they had said that it was unwise to have Krane continue
on as the business manager of the local, and that he should be replaced
by Fred Dutner.
Mr. Tavenner. So that the State committee of the Communist
Party made the decision that Irving Krane was no longer to be busi-
ness manager of the UE. ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct. That is what I was advised ; that is
what I was told bj^ Sam Kushner and Flo Hall.
Mr, Tavenner. Was any reason assigned why the Communist Party
would not permit the UE to elect its own business manager?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, the question wasn't really discussed; I mean
it was just mentioned that he was politically unreliable.
Mr. Tavenner. Politically unreliable. Krane had been considered
politically reliable as long as he was a member of the Communist
Party ; hadn't he ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what occurred that changed his status so in
the eyes of the State leaders of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lundgren. I would say that Irving Krane was beginning to
question the policies of the Communist Party, and as such he was
deemed politically unreliable.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, when a person who is a member of
the Communist Party begins to deviate from the party line, which is
COMIMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3643
lianded him, he becomes politically unreliable; is that in substance
what you mean?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the State organization of the Communist
Party successful in eliminating Irving Krane as business manager of
local 1150?
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to hearing room.)
Mr. LuNDGREN. He was eliminated.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Who was it that led the fight to oust Krane because
of his political unreliability?
Mr. LuNDGREX. Sam Kushner and Flo Hall.
Mr. Tavenxer. What was the last name ?
Mr. Lundgrex. Flo Hall, Florence Hall.
(Representative John S. Wood left hearing room.)
Mr. Tavexxer. Can you give us the names of the list prepared at
the Communist Party meeting of the slate which was to be adopted
by the UE at its next meeting? I am speaking now of the meeting
of December 16, 1949 ; that is, at the home of Willie Mae Smith.
]Mr. Luxdgrex. I remember the names of the candidates who were
selected, but I want to emphasize the point that some of these people
were not members of the Communist Party, and also had no idea that
they had even been selected by the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavexxer. Then I will change my question, and ask you to
state only the names of those on that list who were known to you to
be members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Luxdgrex. Starting off with the president, Pat Amato, who
had previously resigned from the Communist Party, was selected.
And then there was Fred Dutner selected for the business-manager
I»osition, and he also had been a member of the Communist Party, and
was in attendance at that meeting at which we selected the slate, on
December 16, at Willie Mae Smith's home.
Then there was Julia Gudinas, who was also a member of the Com-
munist Party, who was selected on the slate as trustee.
INlr. Tavexxer. What position was she being recommended for, do
you know?
Mr. Luxdgrex. Trustee of local union 1150.
And also, James Dawkins, who was also selected for the position
of trustee of US Local 1150, and he also was a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Tavexxer. What position was Fred Dutner put up for ?
]Mr. Luxdgrex. Fred Dutner was put up for business manager of
local 1150; and, as I mentioned previousl}^, Fred Dutner was in at-
tendance at the meeting at Willie Mae Smith's home on December
16, and that was the Communist Party meeting at which he was rec-
ommended for that position; and, as I understand it, at the present
time he still holds that position.
Mr. Tavexxer. What experience had Fred Dutner had which
would have qualified him for the position of business manager, or
what qualifications did he have for the office ?
Mr. Luxdgrex. Well, actually, Fred Dutner was on the interna-
tional staff as an organizer, and to my knowledge at that time Fred
Dutner had never negotiated a contract, and he was not actually
qualified to hold that job.
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., returned to hearing room.)
3644 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. LuNDGREN. He had merely been an organizer, and getting work-
ers into the UE, but had participated not in negotiations.
Mr. Tavenner. What had Irving Krane's record been as a business
agent ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Prior to Irving Krane's coming on the staff, Irving
Krane was a lawyer, and he had negotiated the contracts in the local
there for a period of 7 or 8 years, and in my opinion he was an excel-
lent negotiator of contracts.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me a moment.
Mr. Walter. The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes.
(A short recess was taken.)
(Representative John S. Wood returned to hearing room.)
Mr. Wood. Let us have order, please.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lundgren, do you recall the date when the
UE took action at its convention to comply with the non-Communist
affidavit provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act ?
Mr. Lundgren. I believe it was at the 1949 national convention of
the UE.
Mr. Ta\^nner. And was it the decision of the UE to comply with
the provisions of the act by having the proper officers execute a non-
Communist affidavit ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what position Willie Mae Smith held
at that time ?
Mr. Lundgren. At that time, Willie Mae Smith was the recording
secretary of UE Local 1150.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she required, under the provisions of the act
and the decision of the UE, to sign the non-Communist affidavit?
(Representative Francis E. Walter left hearing room.)
Mr. Lundgren. The decision of the UE nationally was referred
to the various locals who deemed it advisable to be in compliance
with the act, and our local went on record in favor of signing the
non-Communist affidavit, which we subsequently did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that include the position of the recording sec-
retary of the local 1150?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; it did.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did Willie Mae Smith, as the recording secre-
tary of local 1150, execute the affidavit?
Mr. Lundgren. No ; she did not.
Mr. Tavenner. What did she do ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, she resigned her position as recording secre-
tary rather than to sign the non-Communist affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, when action was taken by the local to com-
ply with the provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act with regard to the
signing of the non-Communist affidavit, did your branch of the Com-
munist Party, that is, the Parsons branch, also consider the matter?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes ; we had a meeting of our branch of the Com-
munist Party, and we discussed who would sign the non-Communist
affidavit, what officers would actually sign and which officers would
not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that before the UE took its action ?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct. That is UE Local 1150.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3645
Mr. Tavenner. So just as in the case of the preparation of the
list of officers that were to be elected, so the Communist Party again
met in a secret meeting ahead, and decided what the policy of the
local UE should be with regard to the signing of the non-Communist
affidavit?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes; in all cases where matters of importance were
going to come up before the local membership meeting, those matters
were discussed at the Communist Party meeting prior to the union-
membership meeting, and that also included the selection of dele-
gates to conventions, and any official business like that, always the
names of these people were selected at the Communist Party meeting
first. Then it was brought to the attention of the people at the regular
union-membership meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Would it be fair to say that the action of the UE
was just merely a matter of form in carrying out the decision that had
already been made by the Communist Party?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, that was what always happened.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any instance of any importance
where the decision of the Communist Party in a prior meeting was
turned down in a UE meeting later held ?
Mr. Ltjndgren. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Right at that point, let me ask you, when these
meetings were held in which the Communist Party decision was fol-
lowed and adopted, were those meetings fully attended by the rank
and file of the UE?
Mr. Lundgren. The union membership meeting, you mean ?
Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes.
Mr. Lundgren. No, For example, when we had 7,200 members
in our local union, when we had 100 we had a pretty good meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, it was only necessary for the Communist
Party to be certain that it had a majority of about 100 that would at-
tend these meetings, or a majority, say, of 51 out of 100 that would
attend these meetings, to adopt its program?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, they didn't actually have 51 members, but
all they needed was the 51 people out of 100 who would go along with
the program of the party, knowingly or unknowingly.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, if the rank and file of the UE would
desire to oust Communist control and influence, all it would have to
do would be to come out and vote ; isn't that about the solution ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, to some extent that is true, but if they had
even turned out in greater numbers, they probably would have been
met with a lot of parliamentaiy procedure and tactics of the Commu-
nist Party, which would tend to slow up the people's desire.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, now — excuse me.
Mr. Lundgren, Well, another point that would probably happen
is that they would drag the meeting out to some great length, which
the average person would then go home, but the hard core would
stay through and see that the policies of the party would be carried
out.
Mr. Tavenner. That conforms with the pattern that has been
shown to the committee in various fields of endeavor — the moving-
picture industry and other places.
3646 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
I would like for yon to describe a little more fully, if you can, the
means that would be adopted by the Communist Party to put over
in UE meetings the decisions which it had made secretly, ahead of
the meetings. Now, can you explain it in a little more detail?
(Representative Francis E. Walter returned to hearing room.)
Mr. LuNDGKEN. Well, the local was under complete Communist
control, and we i-eally never had any major opposition, so that the
people were not aware of the fact that actually a Communist Party
meeting had been held to work out the details before the membership
meeting, and tlierefore the people just went along with the policies
without knowing too much about actually what was happening.
Actually, the people thought they were making the decisions, and
little did they know that they were only carrying out the mandate of
the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. How long has that situation continued to exist,.
to your knowledge, within UE ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, as far as I knew, up to the time that I left
the UE. I would assume that it is still going on, and I don't know of
any change.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, returning to the question of the non-Corn-^
munist affidavit, I believe you stated that the policy of the UE with
regard to that was determined by secret session of the Communist
Party members prior to the meeting ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the UE ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us just what occurred in the Com-
munist Party meeting with regard to that question of non-Communist
affidavit ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, at that particular meeting, which was also-
at the home of Willie Mae Smith, Florence Hall was in attendance,
and Florence Hall said that she had talked it over with the top mem-
bers of the Communist Party here in the State, and that they deemed
it advisable that she should not sign the non-Communist affidavit,
and that she should issue a statement to that effect and, in fact, Flor-
ence Hall said that she would draft up a statement for Willie Mae
Smith to sign, and issue that as her statement, as to why she did not
sign the affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. AVasn't Florence Hall one of the defense witnesses
in the trial of the 11 Conmumists in New York?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I remember reading a statement to that effect, in
the papers.
Mr. Tavenner. And it was decided that she should not be required
to sign ?
Mv. Lundgren. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. So through her, it was decided that Willie Mae
Smith should not be i-equired to sign the affidavit?
Mr. LuNixjREN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what officers were selected at that meeting
to sign the non-Communist affidavit, or may I ask you a question in
this form : Was Pat Amato, president, one' of those selected to si<»-n
the non-Conununist affidavit? ^
Mr. LuNDGRj^N. Yes ; he was.
COMJVroNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3647
Mr. Tavenner. And were not the following also required to sign :
Ned Gorgolinski, who was the first vice president; Walter Rogalski,
second vice president; Anthony Koss, financial secretary-treasurer?
Were they not chosen at the Connnunist Party meeting as those who
should sign?
Mr. LuNDGREN. The list of officers as you named there were se-
lected by the Communist Party group, and again knowingly or un-
knowingly, and they followed out or they signed the affidavits so that
the local would be in compliance.
Mr. Taa^exxer. Now. did Pat Amato resign from the Communist
Party in order to sign the affidavit ?
Mr. LuNDGREX. As far as I know, he did. He sent a letter of resig-
nation to the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenxer. He sent a letter of resignation ?
Mr. LuxDGREX. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavexxer. Was there any action taken expelling him from
membership in the party?
Mr. LuxDGREX. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Ta\^xxer. But in the case of Irving Krane, who had become
politically unreliable, he was expelled from the party by action of
the party after sending in his resignation, was he not?
Mr. LuxDGREX. I don't recall.
Mr. Tavexxer. I think I asked you the question earlier as to whether
or not you kept Pat Amato informed of the Communist Party action
at its various meetings after he resigned.
Mr. LuxDGREX. I already answered that question, and it is "Yes."
Mr, Tavexxer. Did you also keep any of the other officers advised,
that is, other officers who had resigned in order to sign the non-Com-
munist affidavit?
Let me preface that question by another : Did the other officers whose
names I have mentioned, that is, the first vice president, and so on,
resign from the Communist Party in order that they might sign the
non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. Luxdgrex. Well, some did, but the only one that I actually
kept informed of what went on at the Communist Party meetings was
Pat Amato.
Mr. Tavexxer. Which of the others resigned, according to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Luxdgrex. Well, I mentioned earlier that Ned Gorgolinski was
a member of the party, and I know he resigned; and Irving Krane
resigned. And I think that those, Pat Amato and Irving Krane and
Ned Gorgolinski, were the three members of the party, if I remember
correctly, who did resign.
Mr. Tax'exxer. Now, do you know whether or not other members
of the Communist Party kept those who had resigned, informed of
Communist Party activities?
Mr. Luxdgrex. I don't know.
Mr. Ta\'exxer. The only one that you kept informed was Pat
Amato ?
Mr. Luxdgrex. That is correct.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you know whether Pat Amato consulted other
members of the Communist Party regarding Coirununist affairs, that
is, after he resigned from the membership in the Communist Party?
3648 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I do know that he met with members of the
Communist Party after that time, but what was actually discussed,
I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us about the circumstances of those
meetings ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, for example, I remember Sam Kushner, who
was then a full-time organizer for the Communist Party, coming into
our local union office at 37 South Ashland, and then Pat Amato and
Sam Kushner would leave and walk across the street and have a cup
of coffee, or something like that. I remember Leon Katzen coming
into the tlE office. Katzen was also a full-time member of the Com-
munist Party, and talked to Pat Amato, and then would leave the
office.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did Pat Amato at any time discuss with you
the position that he was in, in having formally resigned from the
Communist Party, and had taken the oath that he was not a member
of the Communist Party, and yet continued in Communist Party af-
fairs?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I remember cautioning Pat Amato at one time
for being so open about meeting Communist Party functionaries in the
UE office, after he had signed the non-Communist affidavit; but Pat
Amato just shrugged his shoulders and didn't seem to care whether
or not he was seen.
Mr. Tavenner. Then it would appear that his resigning from the
Communist Party was a mere subterfuge in order to be able to comply
with the Taft-Hartley Act through the signing of the non-Communist
affidavit ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I have given the facts, and I think that you
will have to draw your own conclusions on that.
Mr. Tavenner. In the earlier part of your testimony, you referred
to the fact that Pat Amato, in inducing you to become a member of
the Communist Party, told you that you would be sent to school. Were
you sent to school ?
Mr. Ltjnixjren. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What kind of a school was it?
Mr. Lundgren. I was sent to a full-time Communist Party school.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was the school held?
Mr. LuNDGREN. The school was held on Division Street, west of Ash-
land, above the Russian Cooperative Restaurant.
Mr. Tavenner. What was its name?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I don't recall the actual name of that par-
ticular school. It was just a Communist Party school.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you sent to more than one Communist Party
school ?
Mr. Lundgren. No.
Mr. Tavenner. What are the names of other persons who attended
that school with you?
Mr. LuNDfiREN. Well, 'I don't remember too many of them, but I
do remember Luther Talley and James Tate as so-called fellow
students of this class.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the general subject or subjects which you
studied ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, they gave us a brief study course on Marxist-
Leninist theory, and the main purpose actually seemed to be how
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3649
wonderful conditions were in the Soviet Union, and that we ought
to have the same thing here.
Mr. Walter. Did they give you a course in staging the kind of a
demonstration which we witnessed here this morning?
Mr. LuNDGREN. They did discuss programs of mass action for
various reasons and causes; in how to actually put on a show and, say,
make it appear that you are a lot stronger than you actually are, that
you are bigger than you actually are.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the instructors, particularly those in the
field that you have just mentioned?
Mr. LuNDGREN. AYell, I remember a few of the instructors, but I
don't particularly remember which instructor talked about that par-
ticular subject. I didn't retain much of the course.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, now, will you give us the names of the in-
structors ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, there was David Engelstein, and Gil Green
spoke there, and I believe it was Leni Harris and John Gray, Fred
Fine — and I think that is about all I actually remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Engelstein was the educa-
tional director for the State of Illinois, of the Communist Party?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I believe he was at that particular time.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you attend this school ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. One week.
Mr. Tavenner. Lem Harris has appeared as a witness before this
committee, and can you tell us what position he held in the Communist
Party at that time, or at any time ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't know what his official capacity is, or was.
I do know that he talked about the agricultural situation in the Soviet
Union.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your attendance at this
school ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Were you at the time an organizer of the UE ?
Mr. Lundgren. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you on vacation, or did you have a leave of
absence when you attended this school ?
Mr. Lundgren. No : I was still on the pay roll, and I received my
regular pay from the UE, even though I attended the Communist
Party school, and T was not on a vacation or not on a leave of absence.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did the UE know that you were attending a
-Communist Party school at the time that they were paying you a
salary as an organizer of the UE ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, the officers of the UE did, because it was
worked out at one of our Connnunist Party clubs that I would attend
one of these classes for a full week, and I would not do any union work,
and I attended the classes in the morning and all of the way through
the evening, and I had both Pat Amato and Irving Krane take over
some of my work in the union while I was attending the Communist
Party course. Those arrangements were made at a Communist Party
meeting prior to my attending the school.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether other members of or organ-
izers of the UE received their educational instruction in the Commu-
nist Party at the expense of the UE, in addition to yourself?
24044 — 52— pt. 1 3
3650 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. LuNDGREN. I actually can't say that I do. I do know about my-
self; that is all.
Mr. Tavenker. Did you receive any expense money or compensation
from the Communist Party during the period you were attending this
school while being paid a salary by the UE ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. The Communist Party did not pay me anything.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been affiliated with the Civil
Rights Congress in Chicago ?
Mr. Lundgren. I may have, but I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a list of the officers of the organization,
and I would like for you to look at it and tell us the names of any of
those who appear as officers and who were known to you to be members
of the Communist Party ?
(Document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Lundgren. Will you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Tavenner. I would like for you to look at the list of names of
the officers of the organization, and state which of them, if any, are
known by you to be members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lundgren. Tillie Carle.
Mr. Tavenner. Spell the last name.
Mr. Lundgren. C-a-r-1-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Is she known by any other name ?
Mr. Lundgren. She married Frank Rogers, who at one time was
on the UE staff of local 1114.
Sam Kushner
Mr. Tavenner. Was she [Tillie Carle] also associated or affiliated
in any way with the Modern Book Store in Chicago ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't recall.
Sam Kushner, who at one time was the business manager for UE
Local 1119, and later on was a full-time official of the Communist
Party of the State of Illinois.
John Gray, who was one of the teachers at this Communist Party
school which I attended.
That includes the officers and executive board members.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lundgren, in your statement made on January
7, 1950, at the time you withdrew from the Communist Party, you
made this statement :
In these meetings —
referring to Communist Party meetings —
it was made very clear tliat serving the interests of the Communist Party were
primary, and came ahead of the welfare of the union.
Will you be more specific than that, or can you tell us more definitely
just wliat you had in mind when you made that statement?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, I can give one example. We had a problem
at the Goodman Manufacturing Co., and I remember Fred Fine
making the statement that we had to carry out the policies of the
Communist Party regardless or even if it meant the losing of the shop
from the UE. And I questioned him on that, and he said that the
Communist Party must come first at all times.
Anotlier point, I remember distinctly that there was a dance being
held at the Cinch Manufacturing Co., and Pat Amato approached me
to sell some tickets, concerning the dance, and he asked that I not
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3651
sell any tickets to the Negro people because it was an all-white shop
and they didn't want any Negroes present at the dance. And I ques-
tioned him on that, and he told me that that was the policy of the
party at that time, which was contrary to the policy of our union.
Mr. Tavenner. You withdrew from the Communist Party on Janu-
ary 7, 1950, and are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. I am not.
Mr.TAVENNER. Is there any further statement you desire to make
regarding the reasons for your withdrawing from the Communist
Party and abstaining from reuniting with it ?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, I would like to say this in conclusion : That
I found out that the Communist Party did not carry out the interests
of the working people as they claimed they did, and that the Com-
munist Party consistently distorted the facts, lied, just did every-
thing contrary to what a good trade-unionist would do, and that they
were more interested in carrying out the policies of the Soviet Union
than they were in the interests of building a good, strong, democratic
union.
One further point I think should be emphasized, and that is the
overwhelming majority of unions, I would say probablj^ 98 percent of
the unions, are free democratic American unions, and not controlled by
'the Communist Party; and I don't thing the people should get the
impression that labor unions are bad just because a small handful of
unions in America today are still under the domination of the Com-
munist Party.
Also, I am happy to say that in very many unions the workers have
taken it upon themselves to get rid of the Communist Party leader-
ship of their particular unions.
Mr. Tavenner. But in order to do that they must be acquainted
with the facts.
Mr. LuNDGREN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. Moulder. I have just one question.
You say the total membership in the local union 1150 was approxi-
mately 7,200?
Mr. Lundgren. That is correct, at one time.
Mr. Moulder. And at that time can you give us an estimate, ac-
cording to your best knowledge and information, as to the total
number of Communists that were then working in that union ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, at the peak, when we had 7,200 members, I
would imagine we probably had about 35 to 40 members of the Com-
munist Party.
INIr. Moulder. And what percent of the officers were Communists
at that time?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, throughout the whole period the Communists
ahyays kept the key positions, like president and business manager,
which were the full-time jobs.
Mr. MoFLDER. When you were a member of the Communist Party,
how much were your dues ?
Mr. Lundgren. Well, the dues, I think, when I first joined, the
dues were only $1 a month, and they raised them to $2 on the actual
3652 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
dues ; but we are more or less required to contribute 10 percent of our
salary to the Communist Party.
Mr. Moulder. Do you know, or have any information, as to whether
or not any union money or dues were diverted or used in connection
with the Communist functions?
Mr. LuNDGREN. Well, for example, I don't recall whether it was the
local executive board — I think it was the local executive board bought
a certain amount of subscriptions to the Chicago Star, and they were
given out to certain key members, which the local union paid for.
Mr. Moulder. Who were some of the top leaders that you mentioned
in your testimony that hadn't already been named? You mentioned
some top leaders of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lundgren. AVell, I mentioned all of the ones I knew in my
testimony.
Mr. Moulder. That is all.
Mr. Velde. Did you carry a membership card in the Connnunist
Party ?
Mr. Lundgren. I did for probably the first couple of years, and
then, I forget just what time or what year it was, I imagine it was
around 1948, the Communist Party took the position that it wasn't
too wise to carry cards any longer, and we eliminated the use of Com-
munist Party cards.
Mr. Velde. How did that order eliminating the use of cards come
down to you, do you recall ?
Mr. Lundgren. I don't recall who the exact person was, but nor-
mally what would happen in a situation like that, one of the top offi-
cials of the Communist Party would come to one of our club meet-
ings and tell us what the party policy was.
Mr. Velde. By word of mouth and not by writing ?
Mr. Lundgren. More by word of mouth, and sometimes by mimeo-
graphed sheet or something like that, but more so by word of mouth.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Lundgren, I want to thank you for appearing and
giving the splendid cooperation and your great contribution to this
committee.
Mr. Moulder. To clarify my understanding on the record, I
would like to know the proper name of LTE. What is the correct
name?
)llir. Lundgren. The UE, the full name of the UE is the United
Electrical, Kadio, and Machine Workers of America.
lilr. Wood. Mr. Lundgren, I would like to express to you on behalf
of the committee, as well as on behalf of the loyal. American citizens
in tliis area and throughout the entire country, our very deep a]v
prii?iation for your cooperation here. It is not always easy for a man
to discharge the duties of citizenship, and I think those of us who
have been here in the room today have had a typical illustration of
that. It has been, perhaps, the most disgraceful si:)ectacle that it
bus ever been my misfortune to witness. But it shows the utter
contem})t and disregard of the democratic processes on which this
(xovernment has been founded and which have nurtured its growth
to its present high state — the contempt that is entertained by those
who lend themselves or their sympathies to a movement designed in its
ultimate analysis to the destruction of the things that have nuule this
great Republic.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3653
We wanted to bring these hearino^s here for whatever value they
niijzht be to the i)eople of Chicatro and this area, that they mitrht
know and ascertain Avhat is going on in their midst. For your con-
tribution to that, we are very grateful to you.
Is there any reason, Mr. Counsel, why this witness should not be
excused under his subpena from furtlier attendance?
Mr. Tavexner. No, sir.
Mr. Wood. It is so ordered.
We will stand in recess until 2 : 30.
(Wliereupon, at 1:10 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:30 p. m.,
of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
]Mr. Wood. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, we have Mr. Irving Krane.
Mr. Wood. Are you Mr. Krane ?
]Mr. Krane. Yes, I am.
Mr. Wood. Will you stand and be sworn, please, sir.
Do you solemnly swear the evidence you will give this subcommit-
tee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Krane. I do.
TESTIMONY OF IRVING KRANE
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2:45 p. m., Representative John
S. Wood (chairman) , Francis E. Walter, James B. Frazier, Jr., Harold
H. Velde, and Donald L. Jackson being present.)
Mr. Wood. Will you have a seat, Mr. Krane. Are you represented
by counsel?
]Mr. Krane. No, I am not.
Mr. Wood. In the course of your examination should you deter-
mine that you desire to have counsel, please let it be known, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please.
]Mr. Krane. Irving Krane.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Krane?
Mr. Krane. I was born in 1905 in Russia.
]Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. Krane. I must have been 2 or 3 years of age.
Mr. Tavenner. You are a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Krane. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. How were j^ou naturalized ?
Mr. Krane. By an act of Congress, yes, while yet a minor.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee, please, what your
educational training has been?
Mr. Krane. I am a graduate of DePaul University in the year 1923
and I am a practicing attorney.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat employment have you had in addition to the
general practice of your profession?
Mr. Krane:. Well, I was affiliated with the UE, United Electrical
Workers, from about 1941 to 1949.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Have you appeared here today under subpena
served upon you?
Mr. Krane. Yes ; I have.
3654 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lundgren, in the course of his testimony, ad-
vised the committee that you at one time were a member of the Com-
munist Party, and that you withdrew from the Communist Party,
I believe, in October of 1949. Is that substantially correct?
Mr. Krane. That is correct.
Mr. Ta\tdnner. Wlien did you become a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Krane. Sometime in 1936 or 1987, although I don't know the
exact year or the exact month, but in that time.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you became a member of the Communist
Party, what in general was the organizational set-up of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Krane. Well, if by that question you mean whether we met
as a group in any particular locality, I can say that the set-up
as far as I loiew it was branch units, neighborhood branch units,
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever progress in the Communist Party
beyond that of being a member of a branch or unit ?
Mr. Krane. No; I never did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the branch or unit to which
you were assigned ?
Mr. Krane. I can't recall that, sir. That has been too long ago,
it was a branch unit somewhere in, as I think of it now, in the forty-
fourth ward of Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the circumstances under which you
were recruited into the party ?
Mr. ICrane. Yes ; I will. Prior to the time of my coming into the
party I had taken a very active part in the anti-Fascist movement
which was then coming into existence. I believe I held the title of
executive secretary of the Committee to Aid Victims of German Fas-
cism. In those years we ran some very large mass meetings to pub-
licize the events that were occurring in Germany under Hitler. We
had such personages come to the United States and to Chicago for
the purpose of speaking at these meetings as Sonia Branting, the
daughter of the former Prime Minister of Norway ; the Earl of Lishoul
of England ; and Dr. Kirk Rosenfeld, who was a former Prime Min-
ister of Justice in Russia and was then in exile. John Spivac, who
had done a terrific job exposing the Fascist groups in America, was
a principal speaker. It was the result of that activity plus my legal
defense work about that time of those unfortunates who were without
work, who had been dispossessed of their hcjmes, who found a struggle
on their hands for relief that prompted me to come into the Com-
munist Party because it appeared at that time that that was the party
undertaking that struggle.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you remained constantly in the party from
that time until the present time ?
Mr. Krane. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I mean up to 1949.
Mr. Krane. No; for a time, and I don't remember when it was, pos-
sibly in the year r93S or 1939, 1 dropped out from active participation
in the party. I came back into the ])arty again either shortly before or
just about the time I came to the UE.
Now, there again I can't recall the circumstances, but that is in a
general sense what happened.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3655
Mr. Tavenner. Well, can you tell us what connection tliere was be^
tween your reuniting with the Communist Party and your becoming
an employee of the UE?
Mr. Krane. Well, the only connection I can think of, if it is a con-
nection, and I have my serious doubts, is that I had gone to see Al
Glenn, whom I had known from the anti-Fascist days. Al Glenn then
had a position with the CIO. I had gone to him with the) idea of
coming into some trade-union and at that time he suggested that I
come over and see DeMaio, because the UE was a young organization
and was a developing organization at the time.
Now, I can't recall the details of whether I was then a dues-paying
member of the Communist Party, or whether — probably I was, let us
put it that way, be>cause I can't recall any specific incident,
Mr. Ta\t2nner. At the time you were advised to confer with Ernest
DeMaio, what position did he hold in the UE ?
Mr. Krane, DeMaio at that time was district president of district
11. In other words, he was the head of the UE set-up organization-
ally.
Mr, Tavenner, Was he an active member of the Communist Party
at the same time ?
Mr, Krane. That I can't say.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, when you were sent to him, do you recall
whether you were a member of the party or not at that time ?
Mr, Krane, I believe I was, sir. That is the point that I am a little
bit uncertain about, whether I was at that time or that I became short-
ly thereafter,
Mr, Tavenner. Well, when you did reaffiliate with the Communist
Party, regardless of the exact time, did you learn that Ernest DeMaio
was a member of the party ?
Mr, Krane, No ; the fact of the matter is that outwardly and pub-
licly Ernest DeMaio is in no way affiliated or associated with the Com-
munist Party. However, I attended meetings, one meeting in particu-
lar, at his home at which Communist Party members were present and
the reason I recall that meeting was because of some remark that was
made that I don't think I will forget for a long time. It was made by
Fred Fine, and was to the effect that if in pursuing the party line we
will lose a union or lose the labor movement, it is of no great concern
because the labor movement was lost before and has risen again, and
that struck me as being a most — well, I would rather not characterize
it, but I put in 16 hours a day for about 8 years building a local union
and when a remark like that was made it just went a little bit against
my understanding of trade-unionism,
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, by that statement if there were a
conflict in purposes of the union and the Communist Party, little
thought should be given to the preservation of the union as it would
have a chance to rise again.
Mr. Krane. That would be the import of that, sir, and in my ex-
perience with the UE, I saw that thing happen at least once.
Mr. Tavenner. Now before you come to that, let us see a little more
about the character of the meeting that you attended in Ernest De-
Maio's house, who were present ?
Mr. Krane. At that meeting Fred Fine was present; tliere was
some party leader, and I don't know his name. I never saw him be-
fore. He was from Minneapolis, and there was another leader from
3656 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Wisconsin. Alice Smith was there, and there might have been some-
body there from Locals IIH and 1119, the other two locals. The
other two locals of the city of Chicago.
The discussion generally was about the situation that then pre-
vailed in Minneapolis. It was getting rather serious. Threats of
break-aways were coming in.
Mr. Tavenner. Explain that a little more in detail, break-aways
from what?
Mr. Krane. Break-aways of the membership from the UE. In
other words, a breach had developed in Minneapolis and there was
a general discussion, personalities were discussed, the details I don't
recall right now, and they didn't make too much impression on me.
The thing that stands out was that remark by Fred Fine that the im-
portant thing was to carry out the party line whatever it was, and if
the labor movement were destroyed in the process, not to worry about
it, because it has happened before and the labor movement has risen
again.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Was there any disagreement expressed with that
statement?
Mr. Krane.- Absolutely none, I might say that that same statement
was repeated in essence again by another member of the Communist
Party who played a rather sinister role there, and I am talking about
Florence Criley, or Flo Atkinson, one was her maiden name and the
other was here married name.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee about that.
Mr. Krane. Well, this was a meeting of some kind, and I can't re-
call the place particularly, but Florence Criley stated if you couldn't
carry out the line of the party in any given shop, you didn't have that
shop and we might just as well lose it. Well, I think she demon-
strated that she could do just that thing, lose a shop for the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean ?
Mr. Krane. Well, what happened was this, that in 1947 I believe —
and I may be off a year or two, and that is not the important thing —
but in 1947 I had negotiated a union shop and a 16y2-cent increase
at the Chicago Transformer. There was a change in the personnel in
the local. I had assigned Pat Amato to take charge of the shop. I
thought that with the union shop then in Chicago Transformer he
wouldn't have too much work, being rather notorious for one who
didn't love too much work, and his way of handling that shop was to
get Florence Criley to get a job in Chicago Transformer. Within a
year's time they completely upset the apparatus in that shop, brought
in a new apparatus, and in an NLRB election which took place in the
following fall we lost the shop. The workers broke away from us.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you claim there was a connection from
that breaking away, with the method of operation
Mr. Krane. Tlie connection was very obvious. It was not an
idea of taking the leadership that you have in a shop and trying to
devolop it and to strengthen it and to bring unity to the shop. The
operation was to discard one group of leaders who are not amenable
to you, and impose others that suited you better regardless of a divi-
sion that might develop.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what connection was there between the im-
posing of a new group upon that shop and the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3657
Mr. Krane. Well, obviously the old group of. officers in Chicago
Transformer were not amendable to Florence Criley and Pat Amato,
whatever program they had. I didn't know of these developments
until they had actually occurred. The report was made and we had
an election of new chief shop steward and this is what happened:
Later on we find out what happened in the shop. Then an election
is ordered and NLRB and evei-ything is rosy and we are going to
win that shop and so the reports come through. And when the elec-
tion is over, then the bitter tears start flowing, and what happened,
and what went wrong? That wasn't an isolated instance. We had
a similar experience in Hurley Machine, a shop where we had an
excellent contract, and I don't know if you have any of the workers
from Hurley who might come here, but it would be important for the
workers in the rest of the UE to know.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I want to understand clearly the point that
3'ou are making there. And if I do understand it clearly, it is this :
That on occasion, members of the Communist Party have indicated
that the imposition of the Communist Party line in the union is more
important than the advancement of the worker or the union itself.
Mr. Krane. That is a correct appraisal of the situation.
Mr. Tavenner. And these are instances which you have given of it.
Mr. Krane. Whenever I draw a generalization as a lawyer I would
like to base it on concrete facts.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the approximate date of the meet-
ing in the home of Ernest DeMaio to which you refer ?
Mr. Krane. The closest I can come to it was that it was in the
summer of 1949 and I can't say which month, and possibly June.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall who invited you to the meeting?
Mr. Krane. No, I don't, I don't recall the details, I was told by
some one there was going to be a meeting at DeMaio's home and would
I be there, and I think the meeting was held on a Sunday.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Lundgren has testified here this morning about
an incident which occurred at a meeting of the Communist Party on
December 16, 1949, in which a slate of officers was being proposed by
that group. At the time I believe you were business manager.
Mr. Krane. That is true.
Mr. Tavenner. You were business manager of the local?
Mr. Krane. I was business manager at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not a member of the Communist Party
at that time, as I recall.
Mr. Krane. No, I was not.
]Mr. Tavenner. You had resigned from the Communist Party in
October of that year, I believe.
Mr. Krane. About that time, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn of the fact that the Communist Party
had formed this list for presentation at the local's meeting and that
you had been supplanted by another?
Mr. Krane. Lee Lundgren got in touch with me the following day,
and told me what had happened, and he gave me the details and who
was present, that is true.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you elected to an office that year?
Mr. Krane. I didn't run, I resigned. That was the year I severed
my connection with the UE. Following that meeting and following
3658 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
a meeting in Ernie DeMaio's office about a week prior to this meeting,
m which DeMaio indicated that because of the friction that had devel-
oped between Amato and myself, that it might be advisable that neither
of us run for office; however, if I decided to run he knew how to
mobilize the apparatus of the UE to fight. That statement by DeMaio,
followed by the decision of the Communist Party to supplant me, I
believe was more than mere coincidence.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you issue a statement on January 5, 1950, and
release it to the public regarding your resignation ?
Mr. Kkane. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you what purports to be a copy of your
statement, and ask you to look at it and see if you can identify it as
a copy of the statement you made.
(Document was handed to witness.)
Mr. Krane. That is my statement.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it into the record ?
Mr. Krane. It will be a little trying on my voice, but I will be glad
to do it. It is under press release date of January 5, 1950, and ad-
dressed to the members of Local 1150, UE :
To the members of Local No. 1150, UE:
Effective immediately, I am resigning as business manager of Local No. 1150,
UE, to which position I had been reelected each year for the past 7 years.
I declined to run for business manager again this year, despite assurances from
the membership of the local that, had I accepted the nomination which was
tendered to me by the chief steward of Sunbeam, and seconded by members from
major shops in the local, that I would have been overwhelmingly reelected.
My decision to decline renomination and to resign my post in the local is based
upon tlie following considerations :
I have found that I can no longer tolerate a situation wherein the membership
of the UE is not permitted actually to determine the conduct of their own union
affairs, nor to decide the policies of their own union.
The apparatus of the UE is controlled by the Communist Party in such a
manner as to make it impossible for the UE membership to freely exercise their
fundamental right to run their own union in the way they best see fit.
The members of Local No. 1150 have been wondering as to the manner in which
the single slate of candidates in the current local election came to be selected.
Their wonderment can be cleared up by stating that the slate had been deter-
mined in advance by the Communist Party and Ernest DeMaio, without any
regard to the fundamental right of the membership of Local No. 1150 to deter-
mine who their candidates for local officers should be.
On the 16th of December at a private meeting held on the South Side, at which
some of the local candidates were present, it was reported by Sam Kushner,
former business manager of local 1119 and at present full-time Communist Party
organizer, that Gill Green and other leaders of the Communist Party were
opposed to my candidacy because of political differences.
This meeting then proceeded to determine the candidates for the forthcoming
election in local 1150.
DeMaio's support of the Communist Party's position was made clear by the
activities of the UE staff members working under his direction.
During my entire term of office in the local, my first responsibility and concern
was for the welfare of the membership. The record speaks for itself.
Feeling that I can no longer make myself party to the undemocratic set-up in
the UE, I am therefore impelled to submit my resignation.
With warmest personal regards, I remain,
Yours fraternally,
Irving Krane.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first conclude that it was the purpose
of the Communist Party to impose its will upon the UE regardless
of how it may affect the UE ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3659
Mr. Krane. There were several incidents that occurred. The most
important, of course, was the one involving Ray Lofgren who was
chief shop steward at Sunbeam. I might say that Ray Lofgren had
been chief shop steward at Sunbeam for about 6 years. He was prob-
ably the hardest working miion member in the plant. He had day
after day, summer and winter, appeared in front of the plant at 6
o'clock in the morning, had probably signed up more members in
Sunbeam than the entire total signed up by all other stewards. He
was exceedingly popular. He was a man who could settle grievances
without creating ill will or friction. Despite that, the Communist
Party decided that Ray Lofgren had to go.
Mr. Tavenner. ^\liy ?
Mr. Krane. One day — I am going to give you the reasons in relating
the incidents, sir — I can say that for 2 years a most unprincipled and
scurrilous attack was being leveled against him inside that plant,
especially by two individuals, both party members, and I am referring
to Ned Gorgolinski and Julia Gudinas. The situation became so
scandalous that an open rift began in the plant. Julia Gudinas and
Ned Gorgolinski in their entire membership in the local, in their entire
membership hadn't brought in a tenth of the members that Ray
Lofgren brought in in 1 month's time. Obviously they were favorites
of the Connnunist Party under Flo Hall. Flo Hall held some title
in the Communist Party, and she was a worker in Stewart-Warner,
but apparently had time to mingle into the affairs of other locals and
other situations.
One day, I think it was the spring of 1949, 1 Avas asked to meet with
a committee of stewards and party members from Sunbeam. It was
to discuss the situation. That meeting was held one evening at the
union headquarters. Present was Flo Hall, Ned Gargolinski, Julia
Gudinas, Ray Lofgren, and one other individual, I think John Rogal-
ski, and I am not sure and I am not positive about John Rogal-
ski. The meeting then proceeded to discuss not how to strengthen
the union in the shop by bringing in more members and bolstering
the weakest department in the shop, Julia Gudinas' department, which
probably had a quarter of the workers organized, but the meeting
poceeded about how to get rid of Ray Lofgren because he wasn't
militant enough. In the course of that conversation Flo Hall became
insistent that I get Ray Lofgren not to run for chief shop steward
and instead place Ned Gorgolinski in that position. I refused. I
said, "It is my understanding that Ray Lofgren is popular, the workers
like him, certainly on the basis of the record he has done a better job
to build tlie union than Ned Gorgolinski." "But he is not militant,"
said Flo Hall, and I don't know what she meant by that, but that is
a favorite expression, "He is not militant."
She said, "You have got to do it."
"Well," I said, "I am not going to do it."
I said, "I am only concerned in one thing, who do the workers
want for chief shop steward in that shop, and now if you think that
Gorgolinski is the more popular of the two and I am not going to
say you are right or wrong, I think Lofgren is — let them both run."
With that Ned Gorgolinski jumped from his seat and said, "If Ray
runs, I won't run, that is the end of that."
After more conversation it became very clear to Flo Hall that she
wasn't going to tell me how to conduct the affairs of local 1150. The
3660 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
election took place for chief shop steward shortly thereafter and Ray
Lofgren was elected with acclamation, and I happened to see Flo
Hall shortly thereafter and I said, "Have yon heard about the election
in Sunbeam?" and I said, "Now don't you feel you were a little bit
mistaken about wanting Ray not to run ?" Her answer was, sir, "That
never w^as my suggestion."
I don't mean to cast aspersions on her veracity, sir, but that is the
record. That was the first point.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you the question : Was Flo Hall a mem-
ber of the Sunbeam local ?
Mr. Krane. Flo Hall worked in Stewart-Warner, but she held some
title, and I don't know what she was.
Mr. Tavenner. x\nd was attempting to interfere in the matters of
this local?
Mr. Krane. She was speaking in behalf of the Communist Party,
in attempting to dictate who shall be the chief shop steward in a local
not even of her own.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the point, all right.
Mr. Krane. The other incident, this happened possibly 3 or 4
months prior to this particular incident — no, I am sorry, this incident
happened later. This was a meeting that was held in Flo Criley's
home somewhere on the West Side. Again you are asked to come
to a meeting and you are not to know what is being discussed and
w^e are going to have a meeting ; will you please come there ?
Mr. Tavenner. What kind of a meeting?
Mr. Krane. The meeting turned out to be a Communist Party meet-
ing, and present at the meeting, of course, was our hostess, Flo Criley,
Flo Hall, Ned Gorgolinski, Julia Gudinas, Pat Amato, Dutner, and
Lee Lundgren.
Mr. Tavenner. What is Dutners first name?
Mr. Krane. Fred. Well, after a lot of discussion about other
matters, which don't particidarly come to mind, Flo Hall turned to
me and said, "You ought to put Flo Criley on the staff of the local,
out of consideration for what she has done for the union. I might
explain here that Flo Criley had previously worked for the Mine,
Mill, and Smelter Workers and had been let go. But I don't know
why they let her go there. But after they let her go at the Mine,
Mill, and Smelter Workers she came to w^ork on the international
staff of the UE, and after a year or more of fruitless effort on her
part, not being able to organize a single shop, they let her go. It
was obvious her design was to find a place somewhere on the staff of
the UE.
I told Flo Hall at the time that our finances would not permit
putting on another member on the staff of the local, and I didn't
want to put it on any other grounds. The significant remark made
by Flo Hall at that time was that, "I think you ought to put her on
regardless of where the money comes from." If she weren't a lady,
gee, I would say something to her that probably shouldn't fit into
this record. But let it suffice, Flo Hall was not put on the staff of
the local.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean Flo Criley?
Mr. Krane. Yes; Flo Criley.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3661
Mr. TA^^5NN^:R. That effort to place her upon the staff regardless
of where the money would come from came from the Communist
Party ?
Mr. KiL.\NE. Obviously.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. What other incidents can you recall which con-
vinced you that the Communist Party was endeavoring to put itself
out to irive its own instructions to the IJE regardless of the conse-
quences to the UE ?
Mr. Krane. Well, there is a set of circumstances that come to mind
which indicate the duplicity, the double-dealings, and the hypocrisy
is some of the leadership of the UE, and at the time members of the
Communist Party. I am referring to a situation that developed at
Cinch Manufacturing Co., which was one of the shops in our jurisdic-
tion. Cinch had no Negroes working in the shop. The policy of the
UE w^as against discrimination, against anyone because of race, color,
or political beliefs. It came to my knowledge one day that a dance
had been organized at Cinch and that Pat Amato had turned some
tickets over to Lee Lundgren Avith specific instructions to see that
those tickets do not get into the hands of Negroes in our other shops.
I called a meetingVith Pat Amato, and Lee Lundgren was present,
and we had it out with him. He had nothing to say, and he sat like
a bump on a log. Yet this same Pat Amato some time later, with-
out discussion M'ith either Lee Lundgren or myself, sent a letter out
to the membershi]) of Goodman Manufacturing centering around a,
rather unfortunate situation on the South Side involving a Negro
family.
(Representative Harold H, Velde left the hearing room.)
Mr. Krane (continuing). Previous to that time the workers in
Goodman had advised Pat Amato not to send out any letters of that
nature without discussing it with the stewards. I didn't know any
such letter was sent out until I received a telephone call from the
chief shop steward at Goodman. His name slips my mind at the
moment. And he said, "Somebody wants to talk to you,"' and turned
over one other steward — I will have to recall his name later on — who
said, "What was the idea of 3'ou sending out that letter to the mem-
bership in Goodman? Didn't we give instructions to the officers not
to send out any letters without first clearing with the stewards?''
The chief shop steward's name is Ernie Judth, and the other name
might come to me later on.
I said, "I don't know what letter you are talking about; what is it
about?"
He said, "Well, it is a letter telling the workers in Goodman to
mobilize some action around this issue."
I said, "Well, I personally am in faA^or of taking action because it
is a case of discrimination on the South Side of Negroes. But I don't
know anything about the letter. Who signed the letter?"
He said, "I will look and see and let you know," and in a few^ seconds
he same back and said, "I am sorrv, the letter was signed bv Pat
mato.
NoAv, h^i-e is the same Pat Amato who in a shop that he is not
handling, and he hasn't any problems, will proceed to send out a letter,
and I ani sure that he didn't send it out on his own initiative because
he doesn't have such initiative, and yet will turn around and actively
3662 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
take part in a dastardly discrimination against the Negro members
of our union in a shop that he does not have control of. He is in
great favor, I dare say, with the Communist Party.
Mr. TA^^]s^NER. Was there an occasion at any time when you were
of the opinion that Communist Party members who were officers in
the UE were reluctant to carry out their normal duties as officers of
the UE in preference to any other kind of work ?
Mr. KjtANE. Well, Pat Amato was notorious for his laziness, and
he was characterized as such by the same Flo Criley I mentioned. I
am sure he woudn't do anything that wasn't definitely requested of
him.
Now, if that is your question, that is the answer; and, if it is
something else, I misunderstood.
Mr. Tavenner. That is in partial answer to my question, but I am
wondering if there was any incident, or instance, where one of the UE
officers indicated more interest in carrying out some proposal of the
Communist Party than to carry out the normal functions as an officer
of the union.
Mr. Krane. I think I know what you are driving at. Well, this
is a situation which to this day I don't know the meaning of, but
it is rather peculiar. During this period that I spoke of before where
Julia Gudinas and Ned Gorgolinski and the Communist Party were
interested in deposing Ray Lofgren as chief shop steward, Julia
Gudinas spoke to me one evening after an executive-board meeting and
complained that Ray Lofgren Avasn't militant enough. I said, "Well,
Julia, it would come with much more effect from you if you were to
make criticism to first go out and organize your own department."
Mr. Tavenner. Now, by organizing your own department, you are
speaking of a department of the UE ?
Mr. Krane. No ; I am speaking of Sunbeam. They had something
like 60 departments, and Julia Gudinas was the steward of one of
those departments, the weakest one in the shop. When I said that to
Julia, her remark — which to this day I don't quite understand — was :
"I have something more important to do than to sign up members in
the union."
Now, someone here can fathom that remark, and I would be thank-
ful for it. I can't. I can imagine what she might have had in mind.
Mr. Tavenner. You do know that she was active in Communist
Party affairs, at that time?
Mr. Krane. Yes ; she was.
Mr. Taat^.nner. AVhat dues did you pay as a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Krane. I don't recall now. I think it was $2 a month.
Mr. Tavenner. To whom did you pay them ?
Mr. Krane. Well, at various times I paid it to various persons, and
sometimes at one period it was paid to Fred Dutner, and others to
Pat Amato, and others to Milt Krantzler, and yet others to Flo Cri-
ley.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you pay any special assessments made by the
Communist Party?
Mr. Krane. Occasionally there would be either special assessments
or contributions, and tlie last contribution demanded of us was $100
to raise funds for the defense of the Communist leaders then awaiting
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3663
trial. I recall in that respect and by the way the last request followed
a previous request of about 6 weeks before where we had contributed
$100 once before, and prior to that time possibly another $50, and
they would come periodically, and in that respect I remember Ernie
DeMaio complaining very bitterly to me of the demands made upon
him, successively, for these contributions.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall any instance where the making of
these contributions was passed on to the union; that is, that union
funds were used as donations to any organization or cause sponsored
by the Communist Party?
Mr. Krane. Sponsored by the Communist Party? That I can't
say, and I know we made contributions to various causes. We made
a contribution to a social center on the South Side — and I forget the
name of the one right at this moment — rather a substantial contribu-
tion. I think we made a contribution and we became a subscribing
member of the Chicago Star,
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you say "we," do you mean the union as a
whole ?
Mr. Krane. The local voted the contribution.
Mr. Tavenner. A contribution ?
Mr. Krane. That is correct, a contribution in the one case, and a
membership in the other.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of the contribution that was made to
the Chicago Star, was the Star mailed to each member of the union
without any charge to the individual ?
Mr. Krane. I don't recall the details of that, and I don't believe so.
I think tliat the program was to go out and get subscriptions from
the members.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall who was instrumental in making of
-donations to the Chicago Star?
Mr. Kr.vne. I don't quite grasp your question.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was it in the union or in the Communist Party
who was responsible for the contributions being made to the Chicago
Star, or who took the lead in promotion of the project ?
Mr. Krane. Well, the way those things are done, a committee is
set up, and it is not altogether a Communist committee. It is a com-
mittee, as I recall it, to promote the launching of a newspaper, and
then out of the committee headquarters come requests for you to sup-
port and so on. I don't think that there is any one particular person,
although in that connection there is a rather amusing incident, and I
don't know how effective it is here, but it throws light on some of the
individuals in the set-up.
Just before the Chicago Star was to be launched, there was a meet-
ing called of all of the subscribers to determine a matter of policy, the
launching date of the Chicago Star. At that meeting — it was quite
a large meeting — Gil Green, who was the head of the Communist
Party, had gotten up at that meeting and had protested the early
launching of the Chicago Star, and he felt that before it was actually
launched it should have the assurance of some real financial backing.
Sam Kushner, who was there at the time, came up to me and said,
"Now, look; get up and talk against that proposition, and insist on
the immediate launching."
3664 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
I turned to this creature and I said, "Are you in favor of the imme-
diate launching?" and he said, "Yes," and I said, "You get up and
talk."
That is just a little sidelight about the individual. Sam Kushner
played a very pernicious role in the UE.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with what took place in the
UE at the time it was decided that the non-Communist affidavits
should be executed by certain officers under the provisions of the
Taft-Hartley Act?
Mr. Krane. All I know- about that is that it was generally under-
stood— at least by me — that every officer will determine for liimself
whether he will comply or not. I determined for myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you present at any meeting of the Communist
Party where a decision was reached as to who should or should not
comply with the ])rovisions of the act?
Mr.' Krane. I don't recall, although I heard of that meeting, and
I don't recall being present at that meeting, but I know that some
decision was reached because one of our officers refused to sign and
all of the otliers did sign.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the officer who refused to sign ?
Mr. Krane. Willie Mae Smith, an employee at Thordason.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the circumstances under wdiich she
refused to comply ?
Mr. Krane. No. Apparently that decision was one that came out
of this meeting that you referred to, which I did not attend.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether any of those who signed the
non-Communist affidavit maintained their connections with the Com-
munist Party, although organizationally speaking they had with-
draw^n from the party ?
Mr. Krane. I can't say, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with James Dawkins?
Mr. Krane. Yes ; I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party to your
knowledge?
Mr. Krane. He was, and he came in very recently.
Mr, Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Anthony DeMaio, the
brother of Ernest DeMaio?
Mr. Krane. Yes; I know Anthony DeMaio.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Krane. I can't say whether he w^as a card-holding member of
the Communist Party. xVll I do know is that he attended tliis meet-
ing in DeMaio's home w^iich I had spoken of before, and whether
that denotes membership or not I can't say.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Walter Rogalski?
Mr. Krane. Yes, sir.
Mr, Tavenner. What position did he have in the UE ?
Mr. Krane. Well, Rogalski came out of Exide and came to the staff
of the UE, and I don't recall now whether he was first vice ]:)resident
or second vice president of the local, but he held an office in the local.
Mr. Tavenner, Was he known by you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3665
Mr. Kraxe. Yes. "Wallie Ro<>alski was a member of tlie Commu-
nist Party, and as a matter of fact and here I want to divulge or rather
indulge in one bit of hearsay.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me ; I didn't understand you.
Mr. Kraxe. I want to indulge in one bit of hearsay, but I think
it will be justified. AVallie Rogalski went back to work.
Mr. Tavexner. 1 think that there should be a ruling of the chair-
man if you state that it is hearsay. I would rather not for you to state
it.
Mr. Kraxe. It was told to me by Lee Lundgren, of what had trans-
pired at a meeting of Exide, where Rogalski called the lie of Fred
Dutner and Pat Amato that they were not members of the Communist
Party, and he said, '*NoW' you are lying, Ijecause I was and I know you
were."
That is wdien he broke with the Communist Party, and he took Exide
out of the UE.
Mr. Tavexxer. That was Walter Rogalski?
Mr. Kraxe. Wallie Rogalski; yes.
]\Ir. Tavexx'er. You i-eferred several times in the course of your
testimony to Sam Kushner. Do you know whether or not he became
an official on a high level in the Communist Party in the State of
Illinois?
Mr. Kraxe. Yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you know what that position was?
Mr. Krax^e. Yes. He was supposed to supplant Fred Fine when
Fred Fine was moved up to some higher position as head of the labor
secretariat or something.
Mr. Tavexxer. Were you a regular attendant at the Communist
Party meetings during the period of your membership ?
Mr. Kraxe. No; I was not. If you paid attention to your job, and
did everything that was required, you didn't have much time to do
anything else but come home and get some sleep and get out again in
the early hours of the morning, at the shop gates or at strikes and so on.
Mr. Ta\T5x^xer. What were your duties in general, as business man-
ager of your local ?
]\Ir. Kraxe. Well, I was business manager of the local.
Mr. Tavexxer. That is 1150?
Mr. Kraxe. 1150, and I had responsibility for the local. When I
first came to the local, it had a little less than 1,500 members, and pos-
sibly 8 or 10 shops. It gi-ew to 7,000 in membershij:) at the height,
with 16 shops. The first 3 years that meant, in effect, approximately
12 to 16 separate negotiations every year, with that many different
companies. It meant regular shop meetings with each shop, and it
meant your local^ membership meeting, and it meant grievance meet-
ings, and it meant arbitration cases, and at that time we were in the
War Labor Board days and we had to spend countless time before the
War Labor Board, and generally it was the responsibility for the local.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kraxe (continuing). In 1946 we had three strikes going at the
same time, one at Sunbeam, one at Hurley Machine, and one at Cinch.
At Cinch, Pat Amato apparently thought it more important to spend
the hours after the early morning picketing playing poker with the
workers, although there were other shops that needed attention. We
24044 — 52 — pt. 1 — —4
3666 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
carried through two successful strikes in 1946 and we had to capitulate
in Cinch.
In 1947, 1 believe it was, we had a strike out at Benjamin Electric in
Des Plaines, 20 miles out of the city of Chicago, and none of these great,
stalwart labor leaders could find the time to come out there even once
to get the workers on the picket line. It was much easier to sleep late
in the morning and carry on.
That is the general idea.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand because of your very heavy duties in
your position you were not a regular attendant at Communist Party
meetings.
Mr. Krane. That, plus the fact that those meetings quite frankly
were very dull meetings, and were a rehash of situations that we had
discussed at our competitive board and rather significant things. The
less effective a Communist Party member is, in his or her shop, the
more obstreperous and demanding they are at party meetings, and it
almost works in inverse ratio. The real effective worker in the shop
isn't concerned to coming to party meetings and exerting influence and
giving great and sage advice. He has done his job well.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Lee Lundgren in his testimony has said
that he was advised by Communist Party members that you had be-
come politically unreliable. Do you know what was meant by that
term ?
Mr. Krane. The incidents I have described, where I would refuse
and continue to refuse to allow Flo Hall or Kushner or anyone else
to dictate to me the functions of our local, plus possibly one other>
thing that comes to mind, and this may have had a bearing, and I
don't know. But Kushner engaged me in a conversation about a year
before I left and rather strange, because Kushner and I as a rule didn't
talk with each other too much, but he wanted to know my impression
on the imminent economic collapse in the United States, and appar-
ently I expressed an un-Communist thought when I said that I didn't
foresee an economic collapse in the United States for some time, but
I thought that there was quite a bit of flexibility in the system that
could cope with things, especially since we were able to secure in the
past 20 years some of our social legislation.
Now, that I take it might have been very much anti-Communist.
Obviously it was reported back. That, plus these other incidents, sir,
which made it obvious that as long as I was business manager I would
continue to run that local as I thought the membership desired it to
be run, and not as some creatures from the outside would have it to
build an apparatus that they could possibly control.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you think it is a fair definition of the term
"political unreliability" that when one ceases to follow the party line
he can't be counted upon ?
Mr. Krane. I think that that is obvious.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Walter. Do you have any questions, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions.
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions.
Mr. Walter. There is no reason why this witness cannot be excused ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3667
Mr, Walter. It is so ordered, and you are discharged with the
thanks of the committee.
We will take a recess for 10 minutes.
(A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. Wood. We will come to order. Are you ready to proceed, Mr.
Tavenner ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes, sir. Will Mr. Ernest DeMaio come forward,
please ?
Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the evidence you will give this subcommittee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. DeMaio. I do.
]\Ir. Wood. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. DeMaio ?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wood. Counsel will please identify yourself.
Mr. EoTKSTEiN. My name is David B. Rothstein, Chicago. Do you
want the address?
Mr. Wood. The business address.
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. 188 West Randolph Street, Chicago.
Mr. Wood. Mr. DeMaio, during the progress of your interrogation
you are at perfect liberty to confer with your counsel and seek his
advice at any time that it occurs to you.
Mr. DeMaio. I would like to see that those photographers that
want to take pictures take them now, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wood. If they will cooperate with us, it will be advantageous.
Mr. DeMaio. I prefer that they not be taken during the testimony.
TESTIMONY OF EENEST DeMAIO, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
DAVID B. ROTHSTEIN
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please ?
Mr. DeMaio. Ernest DeMaio.
Mr. Tavenner. When and Avhere were you bom, Mr. DeMaio?
Mr. DeMaio. November 26, 1908, Hartford, Conn.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what your educational back-
ground has been?
Mr. DeMaio. The grammar and high schools of Hartford, Conn.,
and some extension work at Columbia University.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment record?
Mr. DeJNIaio. Shortly after I got out of high school I went to work
for the Western Electric Co.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that ?
Mr. DeMaio. That was in the early June of 1927. I was employed
by them until the latter part of August 1927, at which time I was
fired out of an incident that developed from the Sacco-Vanzetti case
at that time. I didn't realize it at the time, but I had been black-
listed by the company because I obtained employment at a num-
ber of companies that would last 2 or 3 weeks ancl then they would
call me in and they would say that the front office had informed them
that they had to let me go. Well, after about several such experiences
the depression came along in 1929, and blacklist or no blacklist, there
were millions of Americans who could find no employment, and I was
3668 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
among them. I went back to my home town aronnd 1933 or 1934, and
my brother — well, I had no em])loyment until tlie labor movement
began to develop into the organizational upsurge that brouglit about
the CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. What date was that, approximately ?
Mr. DeMaio. You mean what date was the CIO formed?
Mr. Tavenner. No; the date when you began employment again,
which you said was during the upsurge of organizational work in
labor.
Mr. DeMaio. Well, I will tell you how that came about, because
the date itself I don't recall. One of my brothers was employed in
a Hartford plant.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, excuse me, I don't want to go too much into
detail, just to fix it approximately, the approximate year.
Mr. DeMaio. I \\ould say sometime in 1935, possibly earlier or
possibly a little later, but around that period.
Mr. Tavenner. So your first employment then after returning to
your home during the depression was 1935. about 1935?
Mr. DeMaio. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of that employment ?
Mr. DeMaio. I was employed as an organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. By whom?
Mr. DeMaio. By a local that was an offshoot of the International
Association of Machinists, and it had disaffiliated and called itself
the Machine Tool and Coworkers of America, Unity Lodge No. 1.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Where was it located?
Mr. DeMaio. Hartford, Conn.
Mr. Tavenner. xA.nd how long then did you remain as an organizer
with that organization?
Mr. DeMaio. Approximately a year, I would say.
Mr. Tavenner. Then if you will give us briefly what your next
employment was and on up to the present time.
Mr. DeMaio. At about that time a number of moves were taking-
place within the American Federation of Labor and certain forces
within the American Federation of Labor were not satisfied with the
organizational progress within the A. F. of L. They had seen the
efforts of workers to organize into industrial unions thwarted, and
felt that it would be necessary to establish a new trade-union center
in this country. Out of those discussions came some indication of a
general development or trend in that direction. When the develop-
ment came about, I believe there was formed as far as our industry
was conx-erned — of course, there were meetings prior to the actual
formation
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "our industry"?
Mr. DeMaio. The UE. It was formed in Buffalo, N. Y., April 1,
19;>6. I was hired b}^ the UE as its first organizer and have been em-
ployed by the UE ever since.
Mr. Tavenner. What unions at that time were brought together
to formtheUE in 193{)?
Mr. DeMaio. There were a number of independent unions, includ-
ing this machine-tool local I referred to, and there were Federal local
unions of the American Federation of Labor, and there was the Kadio
and Allied Trades Department within the American Federation of La-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3669
bor, headed up by Jim Carey at that time, and a number of other
independent unions in Springfield, Mass., and Lynn, Mass.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of them ?
Mr. DeMaio, I couldn't recall it, the local unions had some rather
fancy names at that time, and I couldn't remember all of those names,
but they were local unions in the electrical and machine-building in-
dustry in those towns.
Mr. Tavenner. What positions have you held with the UE since
your first employment in 1936?
Mr. DeMaio. Organizer, international representative, district j^res-
ident, and general vice president.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present position?
j\Ir. DeMaio. I am [jresident of district 11, and general vice presi-
dent of the UE. That is district council 11; that is the correct term.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. DeMaio, the committee is endeavoring to deter-
mine the extent of Connnunist penetration into labor organizations in
this area, and the effect that such penetration, if it exists, has had upon
the operation of the labor organizations, especially those which are
connected with defense industries. In order to make that study and
this investigation, the committee needs the assistance of those persons
who are in positions such as yourself to know the inner workings of
the Communists insofar as they may aifect top-level officers of the UE.
Now, due to your long connection and experience w^ith the UE, we
think you are in a peculiar position to be of aid to the committee in
making that investigation, and we would like to call upon you to
cooperate with the committee in giving it the benefit of such informa-
tion as you may have which would be important to it. I trust you
will be willing to cooperate in that respect.
Mr. DeMaio. Well, Mr. Tavenner— you are Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. My name is Tavenner.
Mr. DeMaio. Our union on a number of occasions, when involved
in strikes, and when involved in key election situations throughout the
country, has had this connnittee visit the particular locality or area
where that strike or election was taking place, and it was always accom-
panied with a great deal of headlines, newspaper-whipped-up hysteria,
and the sole purpose of the committee was to defeat our union, and to
defeat the union workers involved in the strike or in an election.
Now, if you are asking me to cooperate with this committee to defeat
a strike which is currently taking place at the International Harvester
Co., obviously I can't do that and I won't do that.
Mr. Tavenner. You have not been requested to do anything of that
kind. We are interested only as the chairman has said this morning
in following the movements of the Communist Party, whether it be
in labor, whether it be in the field of entertainment, or whether it may
be in others, and we are searching for the activities of the Communists.
Mr. DeMaio. But while you say that, Mr. Velde, a member of this
committee, issued a statement that the workers of my union in the
International Harvester Co. went on strike against this committee.
Now, I don't know whose statement I could believe at this moment.
Mr. Tavenner. Whether or not your organization went on strike
against this committee seems to have no bearing as far as I can deter-
mine upon ascertaining from you what you know about Communist
activities in your union.
3670 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. DeMaio. Mr. Tavenner, I have a statement I would like to read
to this committee today.
Mr. Wood. The rule of the committee has been and is that if you
want to submit for the record any written statement you have, you can
do so and turn it over to the reporter. If you will answer the ques-
tions asked of you we can proceed with much more dispatch. Just file
the statement and it will go in the record.
Mr. DeMaio. I don't want to prolong the proceedings, but I did
notice that witnesses prior to my being here did have an opportunity
to read statements for the record or had them read by the counsel.
The only thing I want to know is this : Will this appear in the written
proceedings of the hearings?
Mr. Wood. It will be filed for the record.
Mr. DeMaio. It will not appear in the proceedings?
Mr. Wood. Not necessarily, unless the committee desires to do so.
Mr. DeMaio. I see.
{Whereupon the statement was filed with the reporter, for the
information of the committee.)
Mr. DeMaio. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have in support of this state-
ment which I have submitted to the clerk, some documentary evi-
dence in support of that particular statement, and I think it might
be interesting to this committee to understand why it is workers do
go out on strike and what it is that brings people out on the street
denying themselves their wages, with a considerable sacrifice to them-
selves and their families. I would like to be able to bring these docu-
ments to the attention of this committee.
Mr. Wood. If you desire to file any of the documents for the use
of the committee, you are at liberty to do so, and we are very happy
to have them, and you can file them with the reporter.
I might clarify the situation at the moment by telling you, sir, that
I have seen the handbills that have been circulated here, and we take
note of your statement, but, with reference to International Harvester,
I for one did not know there was a strike in progress in this town until
I arrived here.
Mr. DeMaio. There have been a remarkable series of coincidences
regarding the entire matter, Mr. Chairman. One member of this
committee announced last April that this committee was coming to
town and it was just about that time we were preparing our negotia-
tions with the Harvester Co.
Mr. Wood. I hope you were listening this morning when this hearing
opened and heard the statement I read, which speaks the facts of
what this committee actually has done.
Mr. DeMaio. That is one set of facts that you present, and we have
an entirely different set of facts by which we govern our own actions.
Mr. Wood. The purpose of this hearing now is to ascertain the
character and the extent of the Communist movement, if there is such
in that neighborhood. Evidence has been produced before the com-
mittee this day which indicates that, if it is true, and no one has
disputed it yet — and you are at liberty to do so if you desire — that
you are in a position to know and to tell us something of that.
The questions, as I understand it, from counsel, will be directed to
you, and will be directed for the purpose of eliciting that information.
I hope that you are in a jjosition to answer it, and if you are we will be
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3671
happy to have it ; and if you are not no good purpose can be served
by entering into a controversy between you and me, or you and
counsel, and it is just a question of what you want to do about it. You
are at liberty to do either one you want.
So proceed, Mr. Counsel, and ask the questions and let us see if
the witness will answer them.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. DeMaio, let me ask you, how are international
organizers of the UE selected and appointed ?
Mr. DeMaio. Any member of our union may place a name in nomi-
nation for that particular post, and I am referring to the international
operation, if that is Avhat your question is. That name is submitted
on an application blank to the national office, to the organizational
department. This department then circularizes that name to all of
the vice presidents and general officers. Any general officer or vice
president can at that point object, and if there is objection from one
member of the general executive board, that person will not be hired.
Now, that is the usual procedure.
Mr. Tavenner. That oi'iginates then as far as the national coun-
cil is concerned, with a name submitted to you, and who submits that
name?
Mr. DeMaio. Anv member of the union can submit it.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio does normally submit it?
Mr. DeMaio. Member of the union.
Mr. Tavenner. Are the members of the union normally officers of a
local union ?
Mr. DeMaio. Some are and some are not.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Well, in the main, which are they?
Mr. DeMaio. Let me put it this way : All officers of the local union
are members of the local union.
Mr. Tavenner. Of course.
Mr. DeMaio. And they as members of the union as well as any i-ank-
and-file member may nominate a person for appointment to the staff.
Mr. Tavenner. We have had a great deal of testimony in different
areas of the country, the State of Ohio, and we have had some of it
here, and we have had it in other places, to the effect that many or-
ganizers of the UE are members of the Communist Party. What
knowledge do you have of Communist Party membership on the part
of any organizers of the UE ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question ; I am asserting the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Taa^nner. In what way does the assertion of that privilege
affect your answer?
In other words, what is the basis of your refusal to testify on that
matter?
(Wliereupon the witness discussed the matter with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I am discussing that now with my counsel.
(Whereupon the witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I am advised that you may not inquire into my reason
for asserting the fifth amendment privilege, and so I again assert the
privilege under the fifth amendment,
Mr. TA^^ENNER. I am certain counsel will advise you that the matter
of pleading the fifth amendment is a matter of good faith on your
part, and that we have a right to test that good faith.
(Whereupon the witness conferred with his counsel.)
3672 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. DeMaio. Well, I want to assure the counsel for the committee
that I am assertinir the privi]eo;e of the fifth amendment in good faith,
but in view of the proceedings so far today I again must assert the
fifth amendment privilege, and do so.
Mr. Tavenner. And what provision of the fifth amendment is it
that 3'ou are asserting?
Mr. DeMaio. The fifth amendment as I understand it, among other
things, states that no person shall be compelled to be a witness against
himself, and that is the privilege I am asserting.
Mr. Walter. That is only part of it.
Mr. DeMaio. It is the part of the fifth amendment, that part I am
referring to.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you advise the committee whether or not you
would reject the appointment or refuse to appoint a person as an
organizer of the UE if the fact were made known to you that he was
an active leader in the Communist Party?
Mr. DeMaio. I am advised by counsel that I may, if I desire, assert
the privilege on that question, and I do.
Mr. Tavenner. And you do desire to assert the privilege?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And you refuse to answer the question?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes : that is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And you have been in the hearing today, during
the course of the entire hearing, have you not ?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes; I have.
Mr. Tavenner. And you heard the testimony of Mr. Lee Lundgren,
and Mr. Irving Krane, did you ?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear their testimony to the effect that cer-
tain individuals who were organizers of the UE were active members
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard the testimony, Mr. Counsel, and I have already
answered that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear the testimony that I referred to?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard their testimony this morning.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear the testimony that certain individuals
who were organizers of the UE were members of the Communist
Party?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard them make some such statements of that
effect.
Mr. Tavenner. Some statement to that effect?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Don't you recall positively that that statement was
made ?
Mr. DeMaio. I don't have the record before me, and I don't recall
all of the words tliat were said here, but to that effect I heard such
statements made.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it true or false?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question ; I am asserting the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. DeMaio. The same answer, and the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. And what is that answer^
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting my
privilege under the fifth amendment.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3673
Mr. Tavenner. Have von ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer ; the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. As an official of the UE, have you signed a non-
Communist affidavit?
Mr. DeMaio. It is a matter of record that I have signed an affidavit.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you signed it were you a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, asserting the privi-
lege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date on which you
signed the non-Communist affidavit?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, asserting the privi-
lege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to
answer the question. He testified that he did so sign it.
Mr. Wood. I can't see that since you have actually signed the non-
Communist affidavit, giving the dates can possibly tend to incriminate
you or could be construed as giving evidence against yourself.
Let it be noted in the record that there are present five members of
the suocommittee, appointed for this hearing, and the witness is
directed to answer the question last asked him by counsel.
Mr. DeMaio. I would like to consult with my counsel.
(Whereupon the witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. May I ask a question, please? Mr. Tavenner has
advised me
Mr. Wood. Just advise your client.
Mr. RoTiiSTEiN. I am not going to address myself to any question
except i)rocedure, sir. Mr. Tavenner has advisexl me that 1 may not
be heard in the aid of a client in anything resembling oral argument,
and I have no reason to doubt JNIr. Tavenner's statement to me.
Mr. Wood. You can confer with the witness all you desire.
Mr. RoTiiSTEiN. May I not be heard by the committee ?
Mr. Wood. No.
(Whereupon the witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. DeMaio. I assume you are referring to the first affidavit I
signed ?
Mr. Tavenner. First I will refer to the first one ; yes.
Mr. DeMaio. I would say sometime in October of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you subsequently sign another?
Mr. DeMaio. Each year at about the same time ; I don't remember
the exact dates.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period?
Mr. DeMaio. Since 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Up to and including the year 1951 ?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you signed one for the year 1952 ?
Mr. DeMaio. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, since the signing of your first non-Communist
affidavit, have you met in Communist Party meetings with members
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question ; I assert the privilege
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet at any time since the signing of your
first non-Communist affidavit with Fred Fine?
3674 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question ; the fifth amendment
privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Krane at the
point he described a meeting in your home?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard his testimony this morning.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Krane this
afternoon relating to a meeting which was held in your home?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard sometliing of that effect; yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner, Did you hear Mr. Krane testify at that meeting
there were persons present who represented the Communist Party
of other States, States other than the State of Illinois?
Mr. DeMaio. He said something to that effect.
Mr. TwENNER. He repeated, did he not, in his testimony, a state-
ment allegedly made by you ; did you hear that?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard him say something about something I was
supposed to have said.
Mr. Tavenner. What was it that he said you were supposed to
have said?
Mr. DeMaio. I really don't remember now. I think that you ought
to go back in the record on that, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your recollection of what the witness
said?
Mr. DeMaio. I have no recollection, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the testimony of Mr. Krane as to
what Fred Fine said in your home, at that meeting ?
Mr. DeMaio. I heard his name mentioned several times today, and,
now, I don't recall this particular one.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, the essence of what the witness said was
that in the event that the action of the Communist Party might re-
sult in the loss or destruction of a labor union, that was not too
serious a thing, because labor had lost before and had revived. Do you
recall that testimony ?
Mr. DeMaio. Something to that effect, I heard.
Mr. T vi'ENNER. Did Mr. Krane accurately represent what Mr. Fred
Fine said?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I assert the privi-
lege of tlie fiftli amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you refuse to testify as to whether
or not that statement was made at the meeting in your home ?
Mr. DeMaio. I have already answered. I decline to ansAver the
question. I assert the privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Fred Fine in your home at the meeting in
question ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I assert the privi-
lege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Has he ever attended a meeting in your home ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. DeMaio, in 1950, it is our information, you
were elected by district 11 as a delegate to the World Peace Conference
which was scheduled to be held in Sheffield, England, and which was
transferred to Warsaw, Poland. Were you elected as delegate to that
meeting ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, asserting the fifth
amendment privilege.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3675
Mr. Tavenner. Were you denied a passport to attend that meeting ?
Mr, DeMaio. I am advised by counsel that I may properly — no,
strike it. I refuse to answer the question. I assert the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Harold Ward, financial sec-
retary
Mr. Wood. I am not sure that people who are now in the audience
were here this morning at the beginning of the session, so I will repeat
that 5'ou are here by the courtesy of this committee and not by its com-
pulsion, and you don't have to stay. This committee will not tolerate
your staying here unless you obey the committee's regulation with
respect to demonstrations, whether it is favorable or unfavorable to
the testimony that is being given here.
Mr. Officer, the first time you find anybody in this audience violating
that instruction, please eject them from the room.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. DeMaio, do you know wdiether or not Harold
Ward, financial secretary of International Harvester, Local 108, was
elected as a delegate of district 11 to this same meeting and attended it ?
Mr. Velde. What was the date of that meeting, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. The date of the alleged election of the delegates
was in 1950, but I don't know the month.
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question and I assert the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Do you know who paid Ward's expenses on that
trip?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer ; the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the People's Publishing
Association in the city of Chicago?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question and assert the fifth
amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the People's Publishing Association publish the
now defunct Chicago Star?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, asserting the fifth
amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether the locals in your union were
required to subscribe to the Chicago Star or members were required
to subscribe ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, the fifth amendment
privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. We have had testimony by Mr. Krane that contri-
butions were made by the UE to the Chicago Star. Do you know the
extent of those contributions, and whether or not on occasions they
amounted to substantial sums of money?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, fifth amendment
privilege.
Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Krane read into evidence a press release which
he gave the press at the time of his withdrawal from the Communist
Party, and among the reasons given for his resignation, according to
his statement, was that the apparatus of the UE was controlled by
the Communist Party, and that the selection of officers for local 1150
had been determined in advance by the Communist Party and Ernest
DeMaio.
Was that testimony truthful, or was it false? •
3676 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I assert the fifth
amendment privilege. But I might point out that I would like the
same opportunity to read my press statement, that he was given.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make a press statement at the time that
Mr. Krane withdrew as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. DeMaio. I am referring to the press statement submitted to the
clerk here a short while ago.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Did you make a press statement at the time tliat
Mr. Krane and Mr. Lundgren both resigned from the party and stated
their reasons for resigning?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question and assert the fifth
amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever publicly deny the statements made by
]\Ir. Krane and Mr. Lundgren as to the reasons for their resignation
from the Communist Party ?
Mr. DeMaio. The same answer; the same reason; I decline to
answer; the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Walter W. Eumsey?
Mr. DeMaio. Will you identify him, please?
Mr. Tavenner. He is a former equipment worker, farm equipment
worker, from Moline, 111.
Mr. DeMaio. I never heard of him, not until today.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Are you acquainted with Victor Decavitch ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavt:nner. AVasn't Mr. Decavitch at one time an organizer of
the UE in the State of Ohio?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Decavitch testified before the Committee on
Un-American Activities on July 14, 1950, and I would like to read a
part of his testimony relating to you :
After having identified certain persons as members of the Com-
munist Party, he testified as follows :
Next, going- back to Dayton, I omitted one name of a person wlio came into
the employment at the early inception of the CIO. As the condition of the United
Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America got a little better they were
able to place more people on the staff, and this person happened to be one of the
lirst UE worker organizers, and his name was very prominent in the district at
one time. He was Ernest DeMaio, who is now the general vice president of dis-
trict 11, or, to make it more specitic, it is the Chicago area. Ernest DeMaio is a
general vice president at present of that district. I do not know h((w many States
it comprises. On occasions he did solicit me to come into the party.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he active in the work of the Communist Party while you
knew himV
Mr. Decavitch. Definitely ; very much so. And one thing comes to my mind.
At one time one of the general vice presidents of the St. Louis district. William
Sentner, thought it would be advisable to come out in a national magazine ad-
mitting he is a member of the Communist Party, and he did. And I think this
picture was opposite that of some industrialist in St. Louis where they had a
debate in the magazine as to how a Communist and how an industrialist may
work together. I think it was Time, or something like that. I cannot help
recall a statement DeMaio made in New York City to him. He said. "Bill, 1
do not know how you can openly go out and admit you are one in print, as a
member of the Communist Party."
Ernest DeMaio was outspoken, but I think he could hide his identity as a
member of the Communist Party. He was prominent in district 7 for a couple
of years, I think.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3677
Now, is that testimony of Mr. Decavitch true ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting
the fifth amendment privilege. But I w^ould like to point out to you,
since you seem to be concerned about my activities, I have spent the
greater part of my life organizing workers, fighting to defend and
advance their economic interests and welfare. I have fought against
Jim Crow.
Mr. Tavenxer. And have you fought for the Communist Party?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, and am asserting
the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Wood. Why?
Mr. DeMaio. You are inquiring into my reason for asserting the
privilege, and I decline to answer. I am again asserting it.
( Representative Donald L. Jackson left hearing room.)
Mr. Wood. You are perfectly willing to give us your other activities,
voluntarily, and no one asked you about it.
Mr. DeMaio. I have given you my answer.
Mr. Wood. You want to stick by that ?
]Mr. DeMaio. I am sticking by that.
Mr. Wood. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexxer. You have no denial or explanation to make of the
statement made by Mr. Decavitcli
Mr. DeMau). I have answered that.
Mr. Tavexxer. — That you solicited him to come into the Com-
munist Party i
Mr. DeMaio. I have already answered that question, and I have
refused to answer it, and I am asserting the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavexxer. I show you a photostatic copy of page A-7 of the
Washington Star of October 30, 1951. It contains an open letter to
the Attorney (xeneral of the United States in defense of trustees of
the bail fund of the Civil Rights Congress. Will you look at the
document and state whether your name appears thereon as one of those
signing the statement?
Mr. DeMaio. You have handed me a photostat here with hundreds
of names on it.
Mr. Tavexxer. We will endeavor to aid you so that you don't have
to read them all.
Mr. DeMaio. I will save you the trouble. I decline to answer the
question. I am asserting the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. TxVvexxer. My question was whether or not your name appears
on the list. I did not ask you whether you signed it.
Will you examine the document and state whether or not your name
appears there ? I am not asking you whether or not you permitted it
or authorized it or actually signed it. I am asking you if your name
appears on that.
Mr. DeMaio. You have here marked off in pencil "E. DeMaio, UE
field organizer. New York."
Mr. Tavexxer. That is the name that appears?
Mr. DeMaio. That is the name that appears there.
Mr. Tavexx'^er. Well, did you sign that letter or authorize the letter
to be signed ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting
again the fifth-amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavexxer. The matter of the furnishing of bail bond for mem-
bers of the Communist Party has been the subject of investigation by
3678 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
this committee and other committees of the Congress. Has any local
of the UE or any branch of that organization made a contribution to
the bail fund of the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that qestion. I am asserting again
the fifth-amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you made any contribution to the bail fund of
the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to ansAver that question. I am asserting the
fifth-amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I show you a photostatic copy of a program of the
Abraham Lincoln School for the 1943 fall session, and will you look
at the exhibit and state whether or not your name appears there as a
member of the board of directors of that school ?
(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to hearing room.)
Mr. DeMaio. What was the question again ?
Mr. Tavenner. The question is whether or not you see on that
exhibit your name as a member of the board of directors of the school ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting the
fifth-amendment privilege.
Mr, Tavenner. Will you examine the paper and state whether or
not your name appears on it, or whether or not the name of Ernest
DeMaio appears on that document?
Mr. DeMaio. Will you repeat the question again, please?
Mr. Tavenner. Do you see the name of Ernest DeMaio on that
document ?
Mr. DeMaio. On the document you have handed me, I see the name
"Ernest DeMaio."
Mr. Tavenner. Does the name appear there as a member of the
board of directors of the school ?
(Representative Harold H. Velde left hearing room.)
Mr. DeMaio. All this thing says here is "Board of Directors."
Mr. Tavenner. Does the name appear under "Board of Directors"
along with other names?
Mr. DeMaio. There are other names on the page, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't get your reply.
Mr. DeMaio. There are other names on this document.
Mr. Tavtsnner. Appearing under the title of "Members of the
Board of Directors"?
Mr. DeMaio. The title is just "Board of Directors."
Mr. Tavenner. With a list of names under it?
Mr. DeMaio. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And the name of Ernest DelSIaio appears as one of
those?
Mr. DeMaio. The name "Ernest DeMaio" appears here.
Mr. Ta\tcnner. Does the address of the school appear there?
Mr, DeMaio. No ; it does not.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not the address of the
school was 1110 South Oakley Street, Chicago?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, did you serve as a member of the board of
directors of that school ?
]Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting
the fifth amendment privilege.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
3679
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Does the name "William L. Patterson" also appear
as one of the members of the board of directors in the list that you
read from?
Mr. DeIMaio. I really don't know that.
Mr. Tavenner. I will withdraw the question. He is not on the
document that I presented to you. I am mistaken again. It is on
there.
Will you hand it to him ?
(Document was handed to witness.)
Mr. DeMaio. Well, I have a document you have handed me here,
on which that name appears.
Mr. Tavenner. That appears in the list to which you referred
a moment ago, does it not?
Mr. DeMaio. It is on this document ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of your own knowledge whether
William L. Patterson was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer, the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Alfred Wagenknecht ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that, asserting the fifth amend-
ment privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photograph, and ask you to examine
it and state whether or not there is shown on the photograph your
picture and that of Alfred Wagenknecht?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that. I am asserting the fifth
amendment privilege.
Mr. Ta\^nner. I desire to offer the photograph in evidence, and
ask it be marked as "Exhibit DeMaio 1."
DeMaio Exhibit No. 1
At lower part of picture, left to right, are shown Ernest DeMaio and Alfred Wagenknecht.
3680 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. DeMaio. May I see that again, please ?
Mr. Walter. Is your picture on there ?
Mr. DeMaio. I have ah-eady answered that. I have declined to
answer it.
Mr. Walter. You did not answer that question : Is your picture
on there ? ,
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer the question. I am asserting the
fifth amendment privilege.
(The document above referred to, marked "DeMaio Exhibit No. 1,"
is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you another photograph, and I will ask
you to examine it. You will note that there appears near the bottom
of the photograph, directly under the picture of each individual, a
number, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Can you state whether or not you can
identify those persons as follows :
No. i — Abe Feinglass.
No. 2 — Leon Katzen.
No. 3 — Charles Law^son.
No. 4— Hilliard Ellis.
No. 5 — Bernard Lucas.
No. 6— Ernest DeMaio.
No. 7— Herbert March.
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer the question, the fifth amendment
privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that a photograph taken of you and others
in the May Day parade of May 1, 1948 ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, the fifth amendment
privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the photograph in evidence and
ask that it be marked as "DeMaio Exhibit No. 2.''
Mr. Wood. It will be admitted.
(The document above referred to, marked "DeMaio Exhibit No.
2," is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Walter?
Mr. Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. Frazier. 1 have no questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. DeMaio, have you ever applied for a pass-
port?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question, asserting the fifth
amendment privilege.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Jackson. In your opinion, how do you distinguish, if you
do, between an American Communist and a North Korean or a North
Chinese now engaged in military operations against the United Na-
tions ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question on the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Jackson. You would be criminally inqilicated in case you an-
swered that question?
Mr. DeMaio. You are now inquiring into the reason of my assert-
ing the privilege, and I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Jackson. Not at all. I am merely stating the balance of the
privilege you are claiming when you claim the privilege of the fifth
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
3681
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3682 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
amendment against incrimination in a criminal matter. You failed
to delineate that when you gave your original answer. It must be
a criminal matter when you decline, and you must stand in fear of
criminal prosecution.
Mr. DeMaio. That is correct, I do.
Mr. Jackson. Do you still hold to your answer, then, that to an-
swer this question that I have asked would implicate you in a criminal
matter ?
Mr. DeMaio. I repeat my answer.
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer the question ?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer the question, and I am asserting
the fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. Do you consider communism or membership in the
Communist Party a crime?
Mr. DeMaio. I decline to answer that question. I am asserting the
fifth amendment privilege.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Wood. Is there any reason why the witness shouldn't be ex-
cused from further attendance under the subpena ?
Mr. Ta\t3nner. No, sir.
Mr. Wood. It is so ordered.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morn-
ing.
(Whereupon, at 5:05 p. m., a recess was taken until 10 a. m.,
Wednesday, September 3, 1952.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AEEA-PART I
(United Electrical, Kadio, and Machine Workers of America; and
Farm Equipment Workers Council, UEKMWA
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBEK 3, 1953
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee
ON Un-American Activities,
Chicago^ III.
PUBLIC hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 237, Federal Building, 219
South Clark Street, Chicago, 111., Hon. John S. Wood (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives John S. Wood (chair-
man), Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder, James B. Frazier, Jr.,
Harold H. Velde, and Donald L. Jackson.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Thomas
W. Beale, Sr., assistant counsel; Donald T, Appell, William Jack-
son Jones, Robert B. Barker, and Alvin Stokes, investigators; and
John W. Carrington, clerk.
Mr. Wood. Let us have order, please.
Mr. Counsel, are you ready to proceed?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.
The first witness is Mr. John T. Bernard.
Will you come forward, please, sir?
Mr. Wood. Will you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn?
Do you solemnl}^ swear the evidence you will give this subcom-
mittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Bernard. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN T. BERNARD, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,.
DAVID B. ROTHSTEIN
Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Bernard, are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Bernard. I am, sir.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will counsel please identify his name for the
record ?
Mr, RoTHSTEiN. I am the same Mr. David B. Rothstein who ap-
peared here yesterday; or, in the alternative, the same David B.
Rothstein, without the "Mister," sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your full name, please?
Mr. Bernard. My name is John T. Bernard, B-e-r-n-a-r-d.
3683
3684 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Bernard. I was born in France, March 6, 1893.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you arrive in this country ?
Mr. Bernard. I arrived in America the 1st day of August 1907.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen?
Mr. Bernard. I became a citizen through the naturalization of my
father, who became an Am^erican citizen in 1905.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your father's name ?
Mr. Bernard. Joseph Bernard, B-e-r-n-a-r-d.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you please state for the committee what
your educational training has been ?
Mr. Bernard. I will be pleased to do that if you give me the same,
at least the privilege that you gave to the other side. I hope you
will.
From
Mr. Wood. What do you mean, "the other side"?
Mr. Tavenner. Which side are you on ?
Mr. Bernard. I was referring to the stool pigeon who testified here,
if you want me to speak very freely.
Mr. Wood. Are you on the side of the Communists or are you on
the side against them?
Mr. Bernard. I am on the side of America, definitely.
Mr. Wood. I am very happy to have you say that, and I hope you
will bear it out.
Mr. Bernard. I am sorry. May I testify as to my education now ?
I attended parochial schools in southern France for approximately
7 years, to 1905, when the French Government separated itself from
the Catholic church. I was then compelled to attend public schools
for 1 year. That was the term of 1906-07, when I left for America.
I left on the 14th of July 1907. We went directly to a mining town
in northern Minnesota, known as Eveleth, E-v-e-1-e-t-h, in the heart
of the iron-ore country, where they mine the iron ore, the lifeblood of
American industry.
I went to public schools for 3 years; and by the way, I may say
that at the end of 3 years, or at the beginning of the third year, I
reached the tenth grade, and I graduated from the tenth grade with the
other children of my age.
At 17, I went to work in the iron mines of northern Minnesota. I
worked there from 1917, when there was work to be gotten
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Bernard. I am sorry. You only asked me about my education,
that is correct, my counsel has advised me.
That is the extent of my education, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that your father's name was Bernard.
Had he changed his name by legal procedure ?
Mr. Bp:rnard. Had he changed his name by legal procedure? I do
not know that. What do you mean ?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you born under the name of "Bernard" ?
Mr. Bernard. Was I born under the name of Bernard ?
Mr. Tavenner, Yes. Had your name ever been changed?
Mr. Bernard, I invoke my privilege under tlie fifth amendment on
that, Mr, Counsel. *
Mr. Tavenner. Well, now, when was your name changed?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3685
Mr. Bernard. I came to America as Bernard, and I left France
as Jolm Bernard. My father became an American citizen 2 years
before I came to America, and he became a naturalized citizen as
Julius Bernard.
Mr. Wood. Just answer the questions that are asked you.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was your name before you came to America ?
Mr. Bernard. I invoke my privilege on that, under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you came to this country, did you come
under the name of Bernard ?
Mr. Bernard. I did, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign all papers relative to your admission
to this country under the name of Bernard ?
Mr. Bernard. I had to sign no papers whatsoever. Perhaps if
you look into it, you might know it wasn't necessary for a child of
14 to sign any papers.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your name before you came to the United
States?
Mr. Bernard. I still invoke my privilege under the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Taa^nner. How could the giving of your true name before
coming to the United States in any way subject you to criminal
prosecution ?
Mr. Bernard. I still invoke my privilege under the fifth amend-
ment. You are inquiring into the reasons why I am invoking it, and
I am not going to give them to you.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. You contend, as I understand, that to divulge
your name might subject you to criminal prosecution?
Mr. Bernard. Mr. Tavenner, I will try to make it very plain. You
see, I realize that you didn't call me here to do me any good. You
realize that, don't you?
Mr. Tavenner. We called you here to get facts.
Mr. Bernard. Let me answer the question.
Mr. Wood. We do not want any lecture out of you. Just answer
the questions that are asked you.
Mr. Bernard. That is the way you treated stool pigeons. All right,
I will answer your question. I invoke my privileges under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution, and I refuse to answer that by in-
voking that privilege. Is that clear ?
Mr. Tavenner. Does your name appear in Who's Who in America?
Mr. Bernard. Yes; it does.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you give the biographical data to "Wlio's
Who?
Mr. Bernard. Did I give it the data? They took that from tlie
Congressional Record, I believe.
IMr. Tavenner. I asked if you didn't give the data to Wlio's Wlio
for your biographical sketch.
Mr. Bernard. I don't remember giving it to them, I may have.
Mr. Tavenner. You know you did, you know you did.
Mr. Bernard. I don't remember that, that happened some years
ago.
Mr. Tavenner. And do you not know that Who's Who also sub-
mitted to you a copy of the biographical data to see if it was correct ?
3686 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Bernard. You might be correct on that.
Mr. Tavenner. You know it is correct.
Mr. Bernard, I don't remember. I knew that they tried to get me
to give them some money to get in Who's Wlio again, and I didn't
think it was worth while.
Mr. Tavi^nner. I hand you a photostatic copy of Who's Who, of the
section of Who's Who in America dated 1938-39, volume 20, page 306,
relating to Bernard, John Toussaint, and I will ask you to examine it
and state what it shows your father's name to have been, and your
mother's name.
Mr. Bernard. What was your question again?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state what the biographical sketch shows
the name of your father to be ?
Mr. Bernard. You want me to read this to you ?
Mr. Tavenner. No ; my question is perfectly plain.
Mr. Bernard. I don't see my father's name mentioned here at all.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the last name of your father when you
resided in France and when he resided in France?
Mr. Bernard. You want the last name of my father when my father
resided in France?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Bernard. I assert my privileges on that.
Mr. Tavenner. Does it appear on the biographical sketch?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that on the privilege granted me
by the fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, read what the biographical sketch says.
Mr. Bernard. I read it.
Mr. Tavenner, Well, let me hear what it is.
Mr, Bernard. If you want to read it, you are getting paid for this ;
I am serious about it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed
Mr. Bernard. Do you want me to read it out loud or to myself?
Mr. Tavenner. When I say read it, I mean to read it into the record.
Mr. Bernard. Out loud ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is the only way you can read it into the record.
Mr. Bernard. I will read it to myself. I will ask advice from my
counsel.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Ta-^'enner. My only question was what does the biographical
sketch show was the name of your father and your mother before
coming to this country.
Mr. Bernard. Bernard, John Tou,ssaint. I will read it on advice
from my counsel. Bernard, John Toussaint.
Mr. Ta-\t3Nner. Will you spell the last name, please?
Mr. Bernard, T-o-u-s-s-a-i-n-t. That is my middle name, in case
you are a little confused, that is my middle name, which means all
saints in French. "Congressman, b. Bastia, Corsica, March 6, 1893,
only remaining son Joseph and Mary Toussaint (Mattel)," and I
don't know what that means.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you to read the whole biographical
sketch. I want you merely to read the last name of your father before
coming to this country.
Mr, Bernard, I am reading from this document which you
handed me.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3687
]\Ir. Tavenner. Well, what does it show with reference to the last
name of your father ?
Mr. Bernard. Let me read this document again, apparently you
didn't hear me or I don't know wdiat you have in mind. "Son of
Joseph and Mary Toussaint Mattel."
Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain whether it does or not. Is Mattel
the last name of your mother's family ?
JSIr. Bernard. I am reading- from this document, that is right, my
mother's name.
Mr. Tavenner. Does the record show the last name of your father
before coming to this country ?
Mr. Bernard. It doesn't show it, I am reading from this document
that you gave me.
]\Ir. Tavenner. You say it doesn't show it ?
Mr. Bernard. I am reading from this document which you are show-
ing me, that is what I am saying to you.
Mr. Ta\^nner. All right ; that is all.
Will you state for the committee, please, what your record of employ-
ment has been since 1935 ?
Mr. Bernard. Since 1935, in 1935 I was working as a city fireman
for the city of Eveleth, Minn. In 1936 I was elected to Congress as a
member of the Farm Labor Party, served in Congress for 2 years.
In 1936, I mean in 1938, from 1938 to November of 1942, let me see,
from 1938 I think it was to the end of 1940, I may be wrong in that,
but if you know better I will accept it. I am really trying to give you
an honest picture.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand; just give the approximate dates.
Mr. Bernard. From 1938 to 1940 I was unable to find employment
of any kind because in my opinion as a member of Congress I had
refused to bow to the Steel Trust and I remained true to the people.
I challenge you or anyone to show whether during my term in Congress
I have voted against the welfare of the people who sent me there.
From 1940, from the beginning of 1940 to 1941, approximately a year,
on that period I assert my privilege accorded me by the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time do you assert that ?
Mr. Bernard. One year, I think it was a full year, of 1941, I think
it was the full j^ear of 1941. I think I am correct in that. You
have the records there anyway. You can correct me if I am not right.
Mr. Tavenner. Then what was your employment after 1941 ?
Mr. Bernard. From, let us say from the beginning of 1942, if I
remember correctly, I worked that 1 year from the beginning of 1942
to November of 1942, when I had already reached a radius of 00
miles looking for work and unable to find it, 10 days after Pearl
Harbor I sent a letter to President Roosevelt offering my services,
I wanted to do something. There was a period during that time
when it looked as though I might be taken into the United States
forces. I went to Fort — what is the name, that Army post in Min-
neapolis, Fort Snelling — and I passed a physical examination and they
took me to the University of J^Iinnesota where there was a French
professor and they wanted to see whether I really spoke French or not,
and the French professor said, "He speaks French, he speaks as I do, a
Frenchman."
3688 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Then the captain of the Army intelligence who questioned me for
about 2 hours said, "Bernard, you had better get home and be ready
to go, I don't think you will have to wait more than 48 hours." I
went back home and 1 had a confab with my wife, and she was sad
to see me go, of course ; on the other hand she knew that this being on
the blacklist; unable to earn my livelihood was working on me, and it
didn't make me feel like bowing to the forces of reaction, of course,
on the contrary. I waited for that call to come; that call did not
come. I called this major, not a captain, a major of the Army intelli-
gence and asked him if he had heard anything, and he said, "I will
call Washington." And, by the way, I had received a telegram from
the lieutenant commander. General Ulio in Washington, asking me
if I would be willing to accept a commission in the Army for immedi-
ate active field duty. 1 naturally answered in the affirmative, not
knowing where they wanted to put me, and not caring, to be frank
with you. And it ^\^as shortlj' after that that I went into Minneapolis
to the Army post, and to the university and anyway that call never
came. That is why I didn't go for the third time as a volunteer into
the United States Army when my country called me.
In November of 1942 I went to work for the UE, as a field organizer.
I have been working at that since then, up to this time.
Mr. Tavekner. Where have you resided since 1942?
Mr. Bernard. Where have 1 resided ?
Mr. Tavenner. In the city of Chicago?
Mr. Bernard. That is right ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that time where did you reside ?
Mr. Bernard. Prior to that time I lived all of the time, outside of
the time I was in the Army and the short period in Congress, I lived in
Eveleth, Minn.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you living there in 1941 ?
Mr. Bernard. In 1941. That was my home in 1941; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you living there ?
Mr. Bernard. Was I living there?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes; in 1941.
Mr. Bernard. My address was there, and my family was there.
Mr. Tavenner. That isn't my question.
Mr. Bernard. I invoke my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Bernard, the Daily Worker of April 29, 1937, at
page 3, carries a picture of you greeting Angelo Herndon, national
chairman of the Young Communist League. According to this article
this occurred at a mass meeting in honor of Ben Leider, a Communist
who was killed in the Spanish Civil War. Do you recall the occasion?
Mr. Bernard. Can I see the document?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir; we will show it to you.
(Document was shown to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. After looking at it do you recall the occasion ?
Mr. Bernard. I invoke my privilege under the fifth amendment,
Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you know Angelo Herndon at that time
to be the national cliairman of the Young Communist League ?
Mr. Bernard. The same answer for the same reason and if you want
me to state my reason at length, I will.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand your reason is that to testify relat-
ing to the matter might tend to incriminate you and therefore you
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3689
claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. Is that what you intend ?
]\Ir. Bernard. I invoke my privilege under the fifth amendment
to the Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. On what basis?
Mr. Bernard. I don't have to tell you on what basis ; the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution states very plainly that no person can be
compelled in a criminal case to testify against himself, that is the
privilege I am invoking.
INIr. Ta^-enker. The catalog for the 1943 spring term of the Abra-
ham Lincoln School, according to the Daily Worker of January 7,
1945, at page 6, reflects that you were an instructor at that school.
Were you such an instructor ?
Mr. Bernard. May I see the document, or don't you want me to
see it ?
Mr. Tavenner. I do not have the document immediately available.
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that question for the same reason
I stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether William L. Patterson was
the director of the Abraham Lincoln School ?
Mr. Bernard. The same refusal, and invoking the same privilege.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Do you ]ino\v- whether William L, Patterson was
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Bernard. The same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. I show you a letterhead of the Friends of the Abra-
ham Lincoln Brigade, dated June 28, 1938. AVill you look at the docu-
ment and state whether or not your name appears there as a sponsor ?
Does your name appear there as a sponsor?
(Document was shown to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard. I invoke my privilege, and refuse to answer for the
same reason.
My. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask
that it be marked as "Bernard Exhibit No. 1."
Mr, Wood. Let it be received.
(The document above referred to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 1,"
is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you visit Spain during the period of the civil
war there on behalf of tlie Spanish Loj^alist cause?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse that under the same reasons. Why don't
you ask me about my vote against Spanish arms embargo?
Mr. Tavenner. If you will explain your membership or your trip
to Spain, I think you would be entitled to explain anything regard-
ing any contrary action you may have taken at any time, and it would
be perfectly agreeable for you to make a full explanation of it.
JSIr. Bernard. I invoke mv privilege, INIr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. The Daily Worker of February 3, 1938, at page 2,
carries a news item that you were to speak at a conference of the Vet-
erans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade to be held in Washington on
February 12 and 13 of that year. Did you speak on that occasion ?
(Document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard. The same privilege, the same refusal.
3690 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I sliow you a letterhead of the American League
for Peace and Democracy, dated May 18, 1939, and will you state if
your name appears on that letterhead, as a member of the national
committee of the American League for Peace and Democracy ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Does your name appear on the document ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reason, and I
invoke my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the document in evidence and ask that it be
marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 2."
(The document above referred to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 2,"
is filed herewith.)
Mr. Jackson. I would also suggest the official citations of the Attor-
ney General and of this committee with respect to these organizations,
as they are called, as subversive organizations and Communist-domi-
nated organizations, be made a part of the official record in connection
with the citations.
Mr. Wood. The organizations which appear here on the list of sub-
versive organizations have been cited by the Attorney General of the
United States.
IMr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with the fact, Mr. Bernard, that
Attorney General Biddle in the citation of this organization, Ameri-
can League for Peace and Democracy, stated that the American League
for Peace and Democracy was established in an effort to create public
sentiment on behalf of a foreign policy adapted to the interests of the
Soviet Union.
Mr. Bernard. That is rather — I didn't quite grasp it all, it is rather
lengthy.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with the fact that Attorney
General Biddle in the citation of this organization, that is, American
League for Peace and Democracy, said that it was established in an
effort to create public sentiment on behalf of a foreign policy adapted
to the interests of the Soviet Union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Bernard. Well, Mr. Tavenner, you read that and I believe that
is correct, but I had never heard it before.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you believe it is a truthful and accurate
statement ?
Mr. Bernard. On that I invoke my privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr, Chairman, the American Leage for Peace and
Democracy was cited as subversive and Communist by Mi\ Tom Clark,
Attorney General of the United States, on June 1, 1948, and was also
cited by Attorney General Francis Biddle on September 24. 1942.
The Daily Worker of April 7, 1941, at page 5, reports that you
presided over the afternoon session of a meeting of the American
Peace Mobilization, Did you attend a meeting of the American
Peace Mobilization held in New York City in April of 1941, and I
will ask you to examine the issue of the Daily Worker for the purpose
of refreshing your recollection.
(Document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard, I refuse to answer that for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the Attorney General, Mr. Biddle,
cited the American Peace Mobilization as subversive and Communist,
the first time. It was cited by Attorney General Clark, on December
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3691
4, 1947, and also September 24, 1942, by Attorney General Francis
Biddle.
The citation by Attorney General Francis Biddle said the organi-
zation was formed under the auspices of the Communist Party, and
the Young Communist League as a front organization designed to
mold American opinion against participation in the war against Ger-
many. You do know as a matter of fact, Mr. Bernard, do you not,
that the American Peace Mobilization ceased to exist when Germany
attacked Russia ?
Mr. Bernard. I invoke my privilege on that.
Mr. Tavenner. The Daily Worker of May 24, 1937, at page 5,
states that you, Earl Browder, and others were scheduled to speak at
the American Writers' Congress of the League of American Writers.
Will you examine the iDhotostatic copy of the Daily Worker, for
the purpose of refreshing your recollection, and state whether or not
you spoke at that meeting ?
( A document was handed to the witness. )
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, the American Writers' Con-
gress of the League of American Writers, or rather, the League of
American Writers was cited as subversive and Communist by At-
torney General Tom Clark on June 1, 1948; but previous to that
time. Attorney General Francis Biddle, on September 24, 1942, cited
it.
I show you a letterhead of the Committee for a Democratic Far
Eastern Policy, dated May 28, 1948 ; and this letterhead, as you will
see, reflects your name as a member of the board of directors. Were
you a member of the board of directors of that organization?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the letterhead in evidence, and ask
that it be marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 3."
Mr. Wood. Let it be admitted.
(The document above referred to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No.
3," is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. The Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern
Policy is reported to have held a meeting in New York City on
January 23 to 25, 1948, and this meeting is generally referred to as
the National Conference on American Policy in China and the Far
East. The committee staff has information that you attended this
meeting. Did you ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reasons, invoking
the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. The Daily Worker of November 8, 1948, reported
the American Council for Democratic Greece sponsored a telegram
to intervene in what was referred to as Taft-Hartleyism in Greece.
Your name, as legislative director of the district 11 UE, is listed as
having been signed to the telegram.
Mr. Bernard, Sometimes the truth comes out.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, will you give us the truth about that, as to
whether or not you signed that ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Wood. Suppose you help us get the truth out by answering the
questions.
3692 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Bernard. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Wood. Suppose you assist us in getting the truth out by answer-
ing these questions.
^ Mr. Bernard. No ; the counsel said "Taf t-Hartleyism," and I con-
sider that to be the truth.
Mr. Wood. Is that as far as you want to go about the truth ?
Mr. Bernard. Mr. Chairman, you spoke the truth in Congress, and
so did I, and you can't make me believe you believe in Americanism.
I am not going to permit this committee to trap me, and I am going
to assert my privileges.
Mr. Wood. I was just simply trying to find out how far you were
willingto go to help us.
Mr. Bernard. Let us discuss your record and mine, if you want to.
Mr. Walter. Now, just a minute. I did not quite understand.
What did you mean by "trapping me" ?
Mr. Bernard. Well, you know, he is a clever attorney, and he has
been doing this for a long time, and I am only a worker, and I am
going to try to keep awake here.
Mr. Walter. What do you mean by "trapping" you ?
Mr. Bernard. By trying to make me make statements that I refuse
to make. That is what I mean. And I am protected from making
them if I don't want to, by our Constitution, the fifth amendment.
That is what I mean.
Mr. Walter. You might find that your interpretation of the fifth
amendment is erroneous.
Excuse me. Go ahead.
Mr. Bernard. We all make mistakes, I suppose.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the American Council for Demo-
cratic Greece was cited as a subversive and Communist organization,
formerly known as the Greek- American Council, by Attorney Gen-
eral Tom Clark, June 1, 1948.
Did you attend the peace conference held in Mexico City in Septem-
ber of 1949?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer tliat, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. A Conference on Constitutional Liberties in Amer-
ica was held in Washington in June of 1940. A call to that confer-
ence reflects your name as one of the sponsors.
(A document was shown to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the call which is being handed to
you, and state whether or not you were a sponsor of that conference ?
]SIr. Bernard. Is the date 1940, you said ?
Mr. Tavenner. In June of 1940.
Mr. Bernard. The question was : Did I attend the conference ?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a sponsor of the conference, as indi-
cated on the document handed you
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Tavenner. Which is a call for the conference ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
]SIr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, and ask
that it be marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 4,"
Mr. Wood. Let it be received.
(The document above referred to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No.
4," is filed herewith.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3693
Mr, Tavenner. Were you in attendance at the conference that was
held m response to that call?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reason, invok-
ing the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the National Federation for Constitutional
Liberties the outgrowth of that conference?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reason, invoking
the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, the National Federation for Con-
stitutional Liberties was cited as subversive and Communist by At-
torney General Tom Clark on December 4, 1947, and prior to that it
had been cited by Attorney General Francis Biddle on September 24, ,
1942.
Do you know whether the International Labor Defense Organiza-
tion is still in existence ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, under the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact within your knowledge that the In-
ternational Labor Defense and the National Federation for Constitu-
tional Liberties merged in 1946 to form what is presently known as
the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. Bernard. I invoke the same privilege.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Is it a fact that the International Labor Defense
was an arm or branch of the Communist Party movement?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a letterhead of the National Labor De-
fense, which has at the bottom of it a list of those who were members
of the national committee, and there I see the name of John T. Ber-
nard; and will you examine it and state whether or not you were a
member of the national committee of the International Labor
Defense ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard. I am glad you called me John T. Bernard.
I refuse to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the letterhead in evidence, and ask
it be marked as "Bernard Exhibit No. 5."
Mr. Wood. It will be admitted.
(The document above referred to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No.
5,*' is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you a photostatic copy of a pamphlet pub-
lished by the International Labor Defense entitled "Under Arrest,"
and I will ask you if you have ever seen that pamphlet before?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. Or a copy of it.
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Chairman, this is the same publication of the
International Labor Defense which has previously been admitted
in evidence in connection with other testimony.
(Representative Francis E. Walter left hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. I will read at this time only one part of this pam-
phlet. It is entitled "The Work of the ILD."
The principal work of the International Labor Defense consists in arousing
the widest mass protests as the chief effective method with which to wrest the
working-class militants from the bosses' clutches. It also aids the families of
3694 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
the class-war prisouers while their breadwinners are in jails, and of murder
victims. It supplies prison comforts to the imprisoned class fighters. It fights
for the class-war prisoners' rights and privileges inside the prisons, and against
the attempts of prison administrations at petty tyranny and persecution.
The International Labor Defense liliewise helps to provide as far as possible
legal aid and bail, but an ever-increasing burden is being thrown upon the forces
of the International Labor Defense by the great increase in the number of
arrests. It cannot always provide the assistance of lawyers unless the serious-
ness and political importance of the case absolutely requires it. Therefore, we
print this pamphlet.
Tlie pamphlet then goes on to describe what to do when arrested,
and how to enter pleas to the charges that may be made, and various
other matters.
Did you take any part or do you have any knowledge, Mr. Bernard,
of the methods used by this organization to furnish bail ?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavexner. I show you a letterhead of the United States Council
of United States Veterans, and I will ask you if your name appears
there as a member of the advisory board ?
(A document was shown to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard. -I invoke the same privilege; I refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the letterhead in evidence, and ask that it be
marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 6."
Mr. Wood. Let it be received.
(The document above refered to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 6,"
is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. According to information in the files of the com-
mittee, you were a member of the advisory board of Frontier Films.
Is that information correct?
Mr. Bernard. Just a moment. Frontier Films?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, Frontier Films.
Mr. Bernard. Let me consult with my counsel on that.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. According to the Daily Worker of February 20,
1937, at page 2, you were scheduled to speak at a conference called by
the Milwaukee section of the North American Committee to Aid
Spanish Democracy. Did you speak at that meeting?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you affiliated in any manner with the North
American Committee to Aid Spanish Democracy ?
Mr. Bernard. I am invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this organization was cited as Com-
munist by Attorney General Tom Clark on April 27, 1949.
According to information in the files of the committee, you were a
member of the National Committee to Win the Peace. Is that infor-
mation correct?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, under the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this organization was cited by the
Attorney General as subversive and Communist on December 4, 1947.
I show you a photostatic copy of a letterhead of the National Fed-
eration for Constitutional Liberties, dated November 6, 1940, which
reflects your name as a sponsor.
(The document was shown to the witness.)
I
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE CHICAGO AREA 3695
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a sponsor of that organization ?
Mr. Bernard. The same objection, the same privilege, the same
refusal.
Mr. Tavenner. The organization was cited as subversive and Com-
munist by the Attorney General on December 4, 1947.
I desire to offer the letterhead in evidence, and ask that it be marked
as "Bernard Exhibit No. 7."
Mr. Wood. It is received.
(The document above referred to, marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 7,"
is filed herewith.)
Mr. Bernard. I have a brief statement here, made by the chairman
of the national board of the National Association of Manufacturers.
It is only one sentence, and I would like to read that, if you will let
me. Can I?
Mr. Tavenner. If you will just answer the questions, I believe
Mr. Bernard. I thought you would like to hear this. It is only
one sentence, Mr. Coimsel.
Mr. Tavenner. After I conclude my questions, you may address
your request to the chairman.
Mr. Bernard. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Bernard
Mr. Wood. I think we can adjust that subject at the present time.
What I am concerned about at the moment is some of the answers
from the witness, rather than letting him use an answer of someone
else, and he doesn't seem very cooperative in that respect.
Mr. Bernard. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. You see, yesterday when
you made your opening statement, it was in such a low tone of voice
I couldn't hear everything that you were saying.
Mr. Wood. You understand the questions being asked you.
Mr. Bernard. I thought I heard you say something about fascism.
Mr. Wood. You understand the questions, don't you ?
Mr. Bernard. Very well ; and I answer them very clearly, too.
Mr. Wood. I fail to hear that.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Bernard, the Attorney General of the United
States made certain findings of fact, at the time of the decision that
he reached in regard to the Harry Bridges case. Now, those findings
of fact related in part to the Communist Party, and these findings of
fact I want to read to you.
The third finding of fact was that —
the Communist Party of the United States of America, from the time of its
inception in 1919 to the present time, is an organization that believes in, advises,
advocates, and teaches the overthrovp by force and violence of the Government
of the United States.
The fourth finding of fact was that —
the Communist Party of the United States of America, from the time of its
inception to the present time, is an organization that writes, circulates, dis-
tributes, prints, publishes, and displays printed matter advising, advocating,
or teaching the overthrow by force and violence of the Government of the
United States.
The fifth finding was that —
the Communist Party of the United States of America, from the time of its
inception to the present time, is an organization that causes to be written,
circulated, distributed, printed, published, and displayed, printed matter ad-
vising, advocating, and teaching the overthrow by force and violence of the
Government of the United States.
3696 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
The sixth finding :
That the Communist Party of the United States of America, from the time
of its inception to the present time, is an organization that has in its possession
for tlae purpose of circulation, distribution, publication, issuance, and display,
printed matter advising, advocating, and teaching the overthrow by force and
violence of the Government of the United States.
Now, after the publication of those findings of fact, there was a
pamplilet issued by the National Federation for Constitutional Lib-
erties which was in the form of an open letter to the President of the
United States, dated July 11, 1942, urging that the decision of the
Attorney General in the case of Harry Bridges be rescinded.
Will you look at page 16 of that document, that open letter, and
state whether your name appears thereon as a signer?
(The document was shown to the witness.)
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Tavenner. I will read a paragraph appearing on page 15 of
this letter :
It is equally essential that the Attorney General's ill-advised, arbitrary, and
unwarranted findings relative to the Communist Party be rescinded.
Now, did you agree with that statement in the letter to which your
name appears-
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment — as desiring the Attorney General
to rescind these findings of fact with regard to the Communist Party ?
Mr. Bernard. Are you through now 'i
Mr. Tavenner. I have asked you the question.
Mr. Bernard. I was wondering if you were through, that is all.
I refuse to answer that, invoking the same privilege.
Mr. Walter. Does his name appear, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, his name appears as one of the signers of the
letter ; and I desire, as proof of it, to offer the document in evidence,
and ask that it be marked as "Bernard Exhibit 8."
Mr. Wood. It is received.
(The document above referred to marked "Bernard Exhibit No. 8,"
is filed herewith. )
Mr. Moulder. Does it appear as John T. Bernard ?
(The document was handed to Representative Moulder.)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you disagree with the findings of the Attorney
General of the United States with reference to the Commimist Party
as I read to you a moment ago?
Mr. Bernard. I invoke the same privileges.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you disagree now with them ?
Mr. Bernard. For that reason, I refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you disagree now with the findings made by
the Attorney General of the United States with regard to the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Bernard. I invoke my privileges under the fifth amendment
of the Constitution, and refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, invoking my privilege under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse that for the same reason.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3697
]\Ir. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Wood. Any questions?
Mr, Moulder. During the year of 1941, you refused to divulge your
occupation or what you were doing during that period of years, in-
voking, as you say, the privilege of the fifth amendment.
]\Ir. Bernard. Mr. Congressman, please believe me that I wouldn't
be ashamed to tell you where I worked, honestly ; and let me say to
the members of this committee, whether you agree with me or not,
but I want to say to you that all of the things that I have done dur-
ing my life, I am very proud of them, and I will do them again.
Mr. Wood. Why do you object to telling us about it, then?
Mr. Bernard. Mr. Chairman, I ask you for the permission to read
one sentence given by the chairman of the board of the National As-
sociation of Manufacturers, and you refuse me that.
Mr. Wood. You have been given an opportunity to answer a whole
score of questions here.
Mr. Bernard. This man is invoking fascism.
Mr. Moulder. Where did you reside during the year 1941 ?
Mr. Bernard. Where did I reside ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Bernard. That same question was asked of me, and I refused
to answer, and I would be willing to tell you when this committee
adjourns if you want to know, and I am not ashamed of it, please be-
lieve me.
Mr. Moulder, What are your duties now, Mr. Bernard ?
Mr. Bernard. I am working with the UE, as a field organizer,
United Electric, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, and I
want to say that I know on this committee there are members who
are decent guys, and I studied the record of all of them,
Mr. Velde. Mr. Bernard, you say that you are a field organizer
for the UE. Is that the same as a legislative director?
Mr. Bernard. I think that I should try to enlighten you on that.
My real title is field organizer on the international payroll, that is
what I am, and I get the wages of a field organizer, and you would
be astounded to hear what those wages were.
Mr. Velde. Well, astound me, then. How much are they ?
Mr. Bernard. After taxes are paid, I get $78 a week.
Mr. Velde. How big a territory do you cover as field organizer?
Mr. Bernard. Merely Chicago, mainly Chicago.
Mr. Velde. How many plants in Chicago does your organization
represent ?
( Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room.)
Mr. Bernard. You are asking me how many plants the union has in
Chicago ?
Mr. Velde. Yes ; how many they represent for bargaining purposes.
Mr. Bernard. I really don't know the exact number, you must have
them in the record.
Mr. Velde. If you don't know it, all right.
Mr. Bernard. I don't know just how many there are.
Mr. Velde. How many members of the UE do you have at the
present time?
Mr. Bernard. In Chicago, in the Chicago area ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
24044 — 52 — pt. 1 6
3698 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Bernard. I think it is about thirty-two or thirty-three thousand.
Mr. Velde. Have you ever sip;ned a non- Communist affidavit for the
purposes of obeying the Taft-Hartley Act?
Mr. Bernard. I have never been asked to sign one.
Mr. Velde. Do you consider that the field officer or the legislative
director is not an official of the union ?
Mr. Bernard. Well, I will try to tell you that I am a field organizer,
and that is what I am, but because of my background I assist them on
this legislative work, and that is all. I get the wages of a field organ-
izer, and that is what I am.
Mr. Velde. Do you not consider yourself to be an official under the
meaning of the Taft-Hartley law that requires you to sign a non-
Communist affidavit?
Mr. Bernard. No, I don't know, the Taft-Hartley law tells you
those things, and I was never asked to sign it, and apparently I don't
have to, apparently the position I have doesn't require it.
Mr. Velde. Would you if you were asked to sign it ?
Mr. Bernard. If I was asked to sign it, if I was in that category
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Bernard. I think I will invoke my rights under the fifth
amendment on that, my privilege, rather.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Bernard, where do yovir sympathies lie in the
present conflict in Korea ? With the United States or North Koreans
People's Republic ?
Mr. Bernard. I am glad you asked me that because I heard you ask
the same question, something like it, yesterday.
Mr. Jackson. I think it is very important.
Mr. Bernard. Do you want, whether you believe it or not, I am
telling you the truth
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Bernard. That is all right. My sympathies lie with our boys
who are being slaughtered there, in my opinion unnecessarily, and my
sympathies lie also with those poor folks who are being murdered.
If I were in your position I would try my level best to see that hostili-
ties cease at once and then let us find ways and means of solving other
matters and let us stop the bloodshed.
Mr. Jackson. Would you in the event of armed hostilities with the
Soviet Union enter the military forces of the United States willingly?
Mr. Bernard. Mr. Chairman, I mean Mr. Congressman, the fact
that I am here, appearing before this committee, in my opinion proves
definitely that I have been always willing to defend my country, any
nation which attacks America, I willingly will join and do my level
best. I have done it before. I have never had to be drafted. Even
in the last time, I perhaps found I was too old or too radical, and
I don't know what happened, but they wouldn't let me go. I will
fight any country which attacks my country. My father and my
mother, and my son and my brother are buried here, this is my
country and I am going to remain here.
Mr. Jackson. You could render your country a great service by
disclosing some of the nature of this international conspiracy. Either,
Mr. Bernard, you have been and are a member of the Communist
Party, or you owe them a great amount of money in dues, one of the
two. You have perhaps as startling a record of Communist-front
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3699
affiliation as T have seen since I have been a member of the committee.
Now, one more question : Did you ever belong to the Elks ?
Mr. Bernard. Did I belong to the Elks Lodge ?
Mr. Jackson. To the Elks Lodge.
Mr. Bernard. Ask me that after the meeting.
Mr. Jackson. I am asking you now.
Mr. Bernard. I refuse to answer that, under the privileges.
Mr. Jackson. Did you ever belong to the Knights of Columbus?
Mr. Bernard. I refuse for the same reason, with the same privilege,
and I belong now to an organization that you might belong to.
Mr. Jackson. You are not prepared to tell the people of the United
States through a working committee of the Congress, fully authorized
to inquire into things of this sort, you are going to tell them abso-
lutely nothing which might be of service in helping to disclose the
nature of the Communist attack upon this country. Is that correct?
Mr. Bernard. You mean it will help you if I tell you that I belong
to the Elks?
Mr. Jackson. It will be of considerable help if you will tell us
about some of these organizations with which you have been affiliated
or with which you have been associated, organizations which have
been prescribed by the Attorney General of the United States, and
whose findings have been upheld in the Supreme Court, that they are
seeking the overthrow of this Government by force and violence,
and yet you, a former Member of the Congress of the United States,
refuse to help that Congress or refuse to help the American people.
I have no further questions.
Mr. Bernard. Can I answer that ?
Mr. Wood. Is there any reason why the witness should not be ex-
cused from further attendance of the committee ?
Mr. Tavenner. No.
Mr. Bernard. I wanted to answer that, may I put my application
for a copy of the hearings, and may I get that?
Mr. Wood. You may do that.
Mr. Bernard. And also my money for coming here.
Mr. Tavenner. I will call Mr. Francis William McBain.
Mr. Wood. I believe, Mr. Counsel, at this moment we will take about
a 10-minute recess.
(A brief recess was taken.)
Mr. Wood. ^Yho do you have, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will Mr. Francis W. McBain come forward, please ?
Mr. Wood. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you shall give to this
subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. McBain. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANCIS WILLIAM McBAIN, ACCOMPANIED BY
HIS COUNSEL, DAVID B. ROTHSTEIN
Mr. Wood. Have a seat, please. Are you represented by counsel?
Mr. McBain. Yes.
Mr. Wood. The same counsel who identified himself a while ago?
Mr. Rothstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. State your full name, please, sir.
Mr. McBain. Francis William McBain.
3700 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. McBaijst. I was born in North Dakota. Do you want the
city?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr, McBain. Bottineau, a litle town there.
Mr, Tavenner. What was the date of your birth ?
Mr. McBain, July 31, 1905.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. McBain. I went through 4 years of high school, after grade
school, in Bottineau, then I went to 1 year of college, the State College
of North Dakota, and 1 year to, well, it is in a different town, it is the
same thing, actually I have 2 years of college in engineering, and that
is my general education.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you served in World War II, didn't you ?
Mr. McBain, That is correct,
Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of time you were in the Army ?
Mr. McBain. I was in the Navy.
Mr. Tavenner. In the Navy ?
Mr, McBain, Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me.
Mr. McBain. There is quite a difference, I was a little white-hat in
the Navy. I enlisted in the Navy ; do you want the time ?
Mr. Tavenner. The period of time when you were in the Navy.
Mr. McBain. It was I enlisted in the last part of 1942, and I am
not sure, the exact date, it was some time before I was called, but it
was near the last part of 1942 and I got out on points in September
of 1945,
(Representative John S. Wood left the hearing room.)
Mr, Tavenner, With the exception from the period of the last part
of 1942 until September of 1945, how had you been employed since
the completion of your school work ?
Mr. McBain. You want the time after I finished school and skip-
ping that time I was in the Pacific ?
Well, actually I got out originally, I graduated from the first year
in college I believe in 1923 or 1924.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us skip part of that period, begin with 1935,
Mr. McBain, In 1935 I was in Chicago, and I am a tool maker by
trade, and I worked in job shops in Chicago for quite some time; that
is my trade.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to Chicago ?
Mr. McBain. I believe it was in 1926, I believe, and most of that
time I worked as a tool maker, and beginning with 1930 the rest of it is
the depression. In 1935 I worked, I believe, near this period for Belke
manufacturing plant, a plant on the West Side, and I will say up until
1937 I worked, I am not too clear on it because I was pretty hungry
and I worked in a lot of shops and I even ran lathes in basements to
survive, but I actually worked most of that time in the trade, although
one time I ran a tool machine for 23 cents an hour in order to eat.
Around 193G, or I believe 1936, 1 had a job as a model maker and a job
shop model maker, which is scale modeling, it is even more skilled
than tool making.
Mr. Tavenner, In Chicago?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3701
Mr. McBain. Yes, in Chicago ; and I can't think of the exact name,
and I don't know if they are in business, it was a job shop where they
made exhibits for different companies, and you are familiar with gen-
eral model making, scale model making for exhibits.
After I left there I worked as an experimental tool maker in a plant
on the West Side of Chicago, I believe General Scientific, or some
name similar to that, the same thing as a tool maker, and an experi-
mental worker. Then after that, or during all of this period I prob-
ably was out of work in between times. I went to work for the Rosen-
wald Museum, Industry and Science on the South Side as a model
maker, following the same thing there, and I want to make clear they
are fairly closely related, tool maker and scale model maker is related.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't intend for you to go quite into so much
detail, I just wanted to get a general idea of your employment, and the
places of employment.
Mr. McBain. After I left the museum, I worked for a while at the
Westinghouse plant in Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. About when did you begin your employment with
the "Westinghouse Co.?
Mr. McBain. I believe it was in 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue there ?
Mr. McBain. I believe I worked through 1940, and I am not just
clear on that, I think it was in 1940 that I quit that. After I quit there
I went to work for the NYA, and I don't remember the dates, but that
would establish it, when they first opened up in Chicago, as a trial,
they had a machine shop on Huron, it was the beginning of the NYA
shops. I worked with them for over 2 years and I was a supervisor
of the NYA machine shop when I quit.
Mr. Tavenner. By NYA you mean National Youth Administra-
tion?
Mr. McBain. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you work for the National Youth
Administration.
Mr. McBain. I believe around 2 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Around 2 years ?
Mr. McBain. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\t2nner. Does that bring you up about the time you went
into the military ?
Mr. McBain. I got leave from the NYA and enlisted in the Navy
and I was working, that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. On your return from the service in 1945, what was
the first employment you obtained?
Mr. McBain. Well, first
Mr. Tavenner. Or were you self-employed ?
Mr. McBain. I was, first I went out to Denver when I got out, my
mother was living in a little town out of Denver, my health was pretty
bad, and I put in for disability and I got some kind of a bug in the
Pacific and I never could get it identified and my health was pretty
bad and I went out to Denver thinking I would bum around out there
for a while because the climate was very good, but the employment
wasn't too good, and so I started a venture of my own, a little machine
shop.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Where was that ?
3702 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. McBain. It was in a town on the highway out of Denver, I will
think of it in a moment.
Mr. Tavenner. Strassburg?
Mr. McBain. That is correct, it is a little town, and it has a lot of
names to it, but that is correct. I bought the machinery through the
veterans preference of the RFC.
Mr. Tavenner. Rather than to go so much into detail about this,
how long were you in business for yourself in Strassburg ?
Mr. McBain. I believe I ran out of money about the following fall,
and I quit, and I went out of business. I couldn't do it no more.
Mr. Ta\tsnner. Were you at any time on the pay roll of the UE
while you were in Strassburg ?
Mr. McBain. Well, here is what happened: When I quit this ma-
chine shop, and I went broke, I filled out an application for an organ-
izer for the UE and I was accepted but I couldn't say whether it was
right about that time, I didn't work any place else, the application,
when I got the job could have come back within that time, but that is
approximately the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you do any work as an organizer while you
were in Colorado for the UE ?
Mr. McBain. I Vv-as on their staff in Colorado ; that is true.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you work ? And what was the nature of
your work while in Colorado ?
Mr. McBain. Well, first I was there all by myself, and I simply
checked plants and so forth for possible organizing purposes, for new
organizing purposes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue the work of an organizer
in Colorado?
Mr. McBain. I don't know the exact time but they decided to dis-
continue it and I got a transfer and I transferred into Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to Chicago on this assignment?
Mr. McBain. It was in the spring of 1947, 1 believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you do any organizational work of any
character in Colorado besides that for the UE?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McBain. I will have to decline to answer that on my privilege
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date when you left Colorado for
Chicago ?
Mr. McBain. I don't remember the date, it was in the spring.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what year ?
Mr. McBain. I think I said before I thought it was 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. I was not certain of it.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, does the committee have Iniowledge
and information concerning what other organizational work he was
engaged in?
Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain it does. It was inquiring to find
out. I wouldn't state what full information the committee might have
in the form of leads.
Mr. Walter. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. WHien you became an employee of the National
Youth Administration, were you required to sign an affidavit relating
to possible Communist Party membership ?
COMlVrUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3703
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that on my privilege under the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. I am asking what you stated in an affidavit, but
did you sign an affidavit relating to it ?
]\Ir. JMcBain. I still decline to answer under my privilege of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. On July 4, 1947, did you attend an affair at the Jus-
tice Park Gardens, Justice, 111., under the auspices of the Illinois dis-
trict of the Communist Party, at which time Foster was the principal
speaker ?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that under my privilege of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in attendance at a meeting on June 6,
1948, of the Civil Rights Congress rally, sponsored by the Civil Rights
Congress, and held at the Colliseum, Fifteenth and AVabash Avenue,
Chicago, which conference related to the defeat of the Mundt-Nixon
bill which was pending in the United States Senate ?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that under my privilege under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not at that meeting there
was a person by the name of Russ Nixon, among others, who spoke
in that meeting?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that under the privilege of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Russ Nixon?
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that on my privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know that Russ Nixon was the legislative
director of the UE ?
(Witness conferred wdth his counsel.)
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that under privilege of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a convention of the Communist
Party in Denver, Colo., on May 18 and 19, 1946 ?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that under my privilege under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Since coming to Chicago, have you acted as an
organizer of the Communist Party in any way ?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that under my privilege under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. McBain. I decline to answer that, under my privilege, under
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you at this time an organizer for the UE ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McBain Will you state that again ?
Mr. Taatenner. I say, are you at this time an organizer of the UE ?
I understood 3'ou came to Chicago when you transferred as an or-
ganizer of the UE.
3704 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. McBain. You mean am I on the UE payroll ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. No.
Mr. McBain. No, I am not.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Well, are you an organizer of the UE? At this
time do you hold a position, whether you are on the payroll or not, do
you hold a position with the UE?
Mr. McBain. Yes, I do.
Mr. Ta'\t:nner. What is that position?
Mr. McBain. Well, do you mean in the shop or in the UE union
where I work, as a tool maker ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, there are rank-and-file members of the UE,
and then there are members of the UE who occupy official positions
in the organizations.
Mr. McBain. Well, I will state that now where I work in the In-
gersoll Products Division as a tool maker, I work as a tool maker, and I
am also the elected chairman of the plant bargaining committee; as
such, it is the shop bargaining committee, and an elected committee
member and I am chairman of that committee; and also since you
raised the point, I would like to raise a question here that I believe
that before we are in a little tough spot, being called clown here at
this time, that we are under negotiations in this plant at the time and
I am chairman of the shop committee, and the company put out a
letter stating that we were going to be investigated before I was even
subpenaed to this committee and right now whether this committee
is tied up with that, it certainly is, the company certainly is taking
terrific advantage of this by trying to do a job on us, and I have a
letter
Mr. Ta\t<:nner. Now you say that you are put on a spot by being
called here. You mean in connection with Communist Party activi-
ties, that is the only thing that could put you on the spot, isn't it?
If you were not connected with the Communist Party in any way,
how would you be on the spot ?
Mr. McBain. Can I give my explanation of what I mean by being
put on the spot ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if it relates to my question.
Mr. McBain. I would like to. You asked me what I meant when
I said it, and can I give you my meaning of what I said ?
Mr. Tavenner. If you answer my question; I am not going to con-
sent to your making a speech about it, if you are not going to do it
in connection with my question.
Mr. McBain. If you were chairman of a bargaining committee and
the plant was about to go on strike, and you are responsible for the
actions of that plant, involving over 1,100 workers and you are down
here with a strike deadline coming up, and unable to meet with com-
pany, I tliink that I have a right to say I am on the spot. That is
what I am talking about.
Mr. Tavenner. Unquestionably, if it interferes with your time that
you ought to be devoting to something else, I can see how you mean
being put on the spot.
Mr. McBain. Because this thing is pretty hot, there is a deadline
on the strike coming up, and I am certainly the chairman of this com-
mittee that is elected in the shop and I work in the shop, and I am
certainly, I would say, the thing involves a problem because the strike
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3705
is set for a week from Friday, that is 8 or 9 days, and I have no chance
to negotiate with the company, to find out what is happening.
As chairman of this committee who is responsible for the bargain-
ing, by rights I should be there, so I could take care of it.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, was any request received from the wit-
ness that his subpena be laid over ?
Mr. Tavenner. None that I have learned of.
Mr. Jackson. Was such a request made to the committee, that in
light of the circumstances, which you have detailed, a hardship would
be worked upon you and that your appearance should be delayed?
Has any such request been made ?
Mr. McBain. No. Well, the fact the company put out this letter,
and so forth.
Mr. Jackson. Isn't it a fact, Mr. McBain, that a large part of the
tough spot in which you find yourself is the fact that 95 percent of
the witnesses— and I take a minimum figure— who claim the protec-
tion of the fifth amendment before this committee have either been
identified or will have been identified as members of the Communist
Party, and is that not a large part of the tough spot you find your-
self in, because here is the greatest forum in the world, if you have
nothing to hide from the people with whom you work and with whom
you are associated, here the newspapers of the entire country are rep-
resented, and you have no greater forum than simply to answer the
questions of the committee counsel honestly, fully, and frankly when
they are asked? There is a great chance for you to get off that tough
spot, if it has anything to do with the feelings of the people you work
with in connection with communism.
Mr. Walter. We have gone very far afield. Did you make a request
that you be permitted to testify at a future date ?
Mr. McBain. I didn't know that that was possible; I did not know
that there was such a thing.
Mr. Walter. Well, you are represented by counsel. Did counsel
make such a request ?
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. Counsel did not, and may counsel accept full respon-
sibility for the failure to realize that such a request might not be made
successfully.
Mr. AValter. In many instances this committee has deferred hear-
ings for this very reason.
Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. When you came to Chicago in 1947, you were a
UE organizer, and how long did you remain a UE organizer?
Mr. McBain. I quit in the last part of 1947, and I am not exactly
sure of the time, and I quit being an organizer, I believe, in 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. You say that you quit ; I didn't understand you.
Mr. McBain. That is right ; 1 quit.
Mr. Ta^^nner. You mean resigned as organizer?
Mr. McBain. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat was the purpose of your resignation?
Mr. McBain. Well, I don't know if you can understand this : I am
a toolmaker, and I feel I am a skilled worker, and I felt I would like
to go back into a shop, and I have stayed in a shop ever since, because
I decided for one reason, as a toolmaker, you have skills which are
very highly developed, over a long period of time can become very
rusty, and I simply made a decision to go back.
3706 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever sign a Communist tiffidavit under the
provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act ?
Mr. McBain. State that again, will you?
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever requested to sign a non-Communist
affidavit under the provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McBain. To my knowledge I have never been requested to
sign one, as far as I know, as far as I can remember.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions.
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions.
Mr. Walter. Is there any reason why the witness cannot be ex-
cused?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. RoTiiSTEiN. Mr. Chairman, may I have permission, please, to
address a request to the committee. 1 am advised not later than 15
minutes ago that this committee will honor a request for a delay for
the reasons to the subcommittee if the persons subpenaed are heavily
involved in negotiations, and I will state to you frankly I didn't
realize it was a fact.
Mr. Walter. We have done it on dozens of occasions, and we have
done it at the request of your union.
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. I am getting my feet wet here, as it were, and I
didn't know that.
Mr. Walter. And you know your way around pretty well.
Mr. RoTHSTElN. I asked Mr. Tavenner for a copy of the rules.
Mr. Tavenner. I said there are no printed rules of the committee.
Mr. Walter. We operate under the rules of the House of Repre-
sentatives.
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. All right, I will stop playing buyer.
Mr. Walter. Your next witness.
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. I haven't finished my request. Mr. Fielde, who
is subpenaed, and Mr. Oakes, who is subpenaed, and Mr. Gilpin, who
was subpenaed, are heavily involved in the present negotiations with
the International Harvester Co. in an effort to settle a strike in-
volving 26,000 or 27,000 people. Their presence at the negotiations
I am informed is materially necessary in order that progress be made,
if progress can be made, in the settlement of the issues, and therefore
in their behalf, and I am requested to ask that their subpenas be ex-
tended— is that what you call it — to another date.
Mr. Walter. We will take it up in executive session. Your re-
quest comes very late, I might say. You should have made it before
we prepared the agenda, you know, and you don't put tliese hearings
together in 5 minutes.
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. I agree with you it comes pretty iate, and I trust
my explanation as to why it comes late will be exem])ted with the
candor with which it was made.
Mr. Walter. All right, we will take it up in executive session.
Who is your next witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Al Kratz is the next witness.
Mr. McBain. Could I put the letter in evidence that the company
sent out to the employees ?
Mr. Walter. I would like very much to see it.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3707
(Letter submitted to the chairman.)
Mr. Wali-er. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Kratz. I do.
Mr. Walter. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ALCIDE THOMAS KRATZ
Mr. Tavenner. What is j^our name, please, sir?
Mr. Kratz. My full name is Alcide Thomas Kratz, and I some-
times go by the name of Al in business and various other activities.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your first name ?
Mr. Kratz. A-1-c-i-d-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel, Mr. Kj-atz ?
Mr. Kratz. I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. If you desire counsel, to consult counsel at any time
during your testimony, you are, of course, at liberty to do so.
Mr. Kratz. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Kratz ?
Mr. Kratz, I was born in Upland, Ind., November 25, 1902.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee a brief statement of
your educational training ?
Mr. Kratz. Because of my father being a glass worker, my educa-
tion was in various cities. However, my education was completed at
St. Mary's Catholic School in Lancaster, Ohio, and I completed the
eighth grade there.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What has been your employment since 1935 ?
Mr. Kratz. International Harvester Co.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first become employed by the Inter-
national Harvester Co. ?
Mr. Kratz. I believe it was in May of 1928.
Mr. Tavenner. And you have been constantly with the company
since that time ?
Mr. Kratz. No ; I was laid off during the dejDression, and I went in
business for myself; and then I came back in 1932, and I have been
with them ever since, ever since 1932.
Mr. Taatenner. During what period was it, over what years was it
that you were not employed by the Harvester Co. ?
Mr. I^\TZ. 1930 and 1931, up until July of 1932.
Mr. Tavenner. Where is your place of employment ?
]Mr. Kratz. West Pullman Works, 1015 West One Hundred and
Twentieth Street.
Mr. Ta\'enner. In Chicago?
Mr. Kratz. Yes.
Mr. Ta^-enner. Have you been a member of the local union at that
plant, the West Pullman Works?
]Mr. I^ATz. Do you mean the one that is now there at the present
time ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Kratz. I was only a short time. I was expelled from that
union.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you expelled ?
3708 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Kratz, I was expelled right after the affiliation with the Farm
Equipment, with the United Electric Workers.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the approximate date of your
expulsion ?
Mr. Kratz. No; I don't. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Tavenner. How long had you been a member of that union?
Mr. Kratz. Since it won the bargaining rights. I think it was in
1941.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the number of the local ?
Mr. Kratz. Local 107.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time hold a position in local 107?
Mr. Kratz. Yes; I held various positions in 107. I held the job
of recording secretary, legislative director
Mr. Tavenner. Will you fix the approximate dates of those offices,
if you can ?
Mr. Kratz. In 1944, 1 was the recording secretary. In 1945, I was
the legislative director. And in 1950, 1 believe it was, that I was the
first vice president.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kratz. No ; I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Kratz. I have.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a member ?
Mr. Kratz. In March of 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you issued a Communist Party card?
Mr. Kratz. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have it ?
Mr. Kratz. Yes; I do.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to introduce it in evidence, with
the understanding that a photostatic copy be taken, and the original
returned to the owner.
Mr. Walter. It will be marked as a part of the record.
Mr. Tavenner. I will ask it be marked as "Kratz Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Walter. It may be so marked.
(The document above referred to, marked "Kratz Exhibit No. 1,"
is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. You have also handed me a card for the year
1945.
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. So I desire to introduce it in evidence also, and
ask it be marked as "Kratz exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Walter. It will be done.
(The document above referred to, marked "Kratz Exhibit No.
2," is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Kratz. I will have to consult this record here that I have,
a letter that I sent in to the Communist Party August 21, 1946.
I sent them a letter of resignation, registered mail, return receipt
requested, through the Roseland post office.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive the return receipt ?
Mr. Kratz. I did.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3709
Mr. Tavenner. Whose name was signed to it ?
Mr. Kratz. Grace Zarniack.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have the return receipt ?
Mr. Kratz. No ; I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you let me see your letter of resignation?
(Document handed to Mr. Tavenner.)
Mr. Tavenner. Is this a copy made by you at the time ?
Mr. Kratz. It is.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to read it into the record :
Chicago, III., August 21, 1946.
Dear Comrade: This is to tender my resignation in the Communist Party,
as I do not believe I can fulfill the duties of the party. I am enclosing my
dues books also.
I am, Al Kratz,
10132 Normal Avenue, Chicago, III.
To whom did you mail this document ?
Mr. Kjiatz. To Grace Zarniack.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did she hold ?
Mr. Kratz. She was secretary of the Roseland branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive any reply, other than the return
receipt ?
Mr. Kratz. No ; I didn't receive any reply.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, let us go back to the time you joined the
party. Will you give the committee a picture of the circumstances
under which you became a member ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, a month or so prior to that, I had been appointed
by the international office executive board as a part-time field repre-
sentative ; that is, I would work in the shop all day, and then organize
in the evening.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, of what organization ?
Mr. Kratz. Local 1 of the Farm Equipment Union. And the field
representative, Charles Killinger, he asked me, or he gave me several
copies of the Worker, and said this was a workers' organization and
it would help me a lot in my work, and would I join; and I signed
the card at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the person ?
Mr. Kj?atz. Charles Killinger, K-i-1-l-i-n-g-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you afterward meet in Communist Party meet-
ings with him?
Mr. Kratz. Yes ; we did.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat official position did he have in the Commu-
nist Party, if any ?
Mr. Kratz. None that I know of. At one time they wanted him
to run for a State office, and he refused to run for that office.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he occupy at that time an official position in
the Farm Equipment Union ?
Mr. Kratz. I was a part-time field representative, and because of
the local union ruling that no one on the payroll could have office,
I had to resign as recording secretary of local 107 in order to have
the part-time field representative job.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, at the time when Killinger gave you a copy
of the Daily Worker and asked you to become a member of the Com-
mimist Party, did Killinger hold any j)osition within the Farm Equip-
ment Union ?
3710 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Kratz. Yes; lie was a field representative, and I was his
helper.
Mr. Tavenner. He was your immediate superior ?
Mr. Kratz. That is rig-ht.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he endeavored to recruit
other members of the union in the Communist Party?
Mr. Kratz. No ; he didn't in my presence at any time.
Mr. Ta\T5Nner. Do you know whether Mr. Killinger is still a mem-
ber of the Farm Equipment Union, and whether he holds any official
position ?
Mr. Kratz. That I don't know. I have lost contact with him for
some years now, and the last I heard he was on sick leave, and I don't
know how true it is, and I haven't seen him for quite a few years.
Mr. Tavenner. After becoming a member of the party, were you
assigned to a branch or cell ?
Mr. Kratz. Yes; the Koseland branch.
Mr. Tavenner. The Roseland branch ?
Mr. Kratz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Who made up the personnel of the Roseland branch,
and was it people in any particular line of employment ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, we were mostly made up from the International
Harvester plant.
Mr. Tavenner. How many members were there when you became a
member ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, the full membership was never disclosed to me,
and I never did find out the full membership of it, and there were
in the neighborhood of around 15 or 20.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were the meetings held ?
Mr. Kratz. In a hall right off One Hundred and Fourth Street, on
Michigan Avenue. I don't know the address there. It is known as the
Lithuanian Hall.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend meetings there ?
Mr. Kratz. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. How frequently did you attend ?
Mr. Kratz. Once a month, at least, and sometimes of tener.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how many months did you attend the meet-
ings ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, from the time I joined in March of 1944, until
the early part of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee who were membei'S
of this branch, the Roseland branch, with you, as far as you can recall?
Mr. Kratz. There was George Shanta.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name?
Mr. Kratz. S-h-a-n-t-a.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, just a moment. Did he hold any official posi-
tion in the Farm Equipment Union at that time ?
Mr. Kratz. Yes. Yes ; he did. He was the president of the local.
Mr. Tavenner. The president of the local ?
Mr. Kratz, Local 107 ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he holds a position in the
local or in the Farm Equipment Union at this time?
Mr. Kratz. Yes ; he is the president.
Mr. Tavenner. President of the local?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3711
Mr. Kratz. Local 107; yes.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. All right, if you will proceed.
Mr. Kratz. Andrew Rossi, R-o-s-s-i, was a member.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he hold any official position in local 107?
jNIr. Kratz. Yes; he was the education and publicity director in
local 107.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you know that these persons were members
of the Roseland cell of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, I held meetings with them, and whenever there
was any money raised in the Communist Party, I went to them and
solicited them for money.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a dues collector?
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Very well. Will you proceed ?
Mr. Kratz. Then there was LeRoy Tribbite.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Tribbite hold any position in local 107?
Mr. Kratz. Not at that time ; no.
Mr. Ta-\t:nner. Will you spell his name, please?
Mr. Kratz. I believe it is T-r-i-b-b-i-t-e.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he hold a position at any later time ?
Mr. Kratz. Yes ; he became the recording secretary of the local.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir; proceed.
Mr. Kratz. And Mary Casaro — C-a-s-a-r-o, I think that is the
spelling.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did she hold, if any, in the local
union?
Mr. Kratz. She didn't hold any at that time, but later she became
the second vice president of local 107.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you proceed?
Mr. Kratz. Then there was Joe Balsis, B-a-1-s-i-s, and he didn't
hold any position at any time.
Then from 161 or 163, 1 am not sure which local it is, it is the Great
Lakes Forge and it was at that time in the Farm Equipment Union,
and it was Peter Hansen, H-a-n-s-e-n.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Peter Hassen, H-a-s-s-e-n, I believe it is.
Mr. Kratz. That is what it is, H-a-s-s-e-n. He was the treasurer
at one time of the local, I mean he was the treasurer of the Roseland
branch of the Communist Party ; and he was also, he held some office
on the executive board of his local there, and I don't know what it is,
but it was affiliated with the Farm Equipment Union at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. But a different local from that which you were a
member of?
Mr. Kratz. That is right,
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time collect dues from him ?
Mr. Kratz. No. He collected them from me.
Mr. Tavenner. For our purposes, that is just as good.
Do you have any record to substantiate your statement that he col-
lected dues from you?
Mr. Kratz. Yes ; I do. I have a receipt signed by him, and having
five Communist Party stamps on it.
Mr. Tavenner. May I see that?
(A document was handed to Mr. Tavenner.)
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left hearing room.)
3712 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. This receipt reads as follows :
October 22 — Received of Al Kratz five and no/100 dollars for months June,
July, August, September, October, for dues, at $1.00. P. Hassen— H-a-s-s-e-n.
And on the reverse side will be found five stamps for $1, each marked
"Dues, CP, USA, $1.00."
What year was it that that receipt was given to you ?
Mr. Kratz. In 1945.
Mr. Walter. May I see the receipt, please ?
(Document was handed to Representative Walter.)
Mr. Velde. Was not the Communist Party called the Communist
Political Association at that time?
Mr. Kratz. Yes. The cards which he presented there bear that,
"Communist Political Association."
Mr. Velde. This receipt is just marked "CP" for that marking.
Mr. Walter. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of others whom you can
recall, who were members of the Roseland Branch ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, there was Zarniack, and then she had three sis-
ters; one was Jean Erickson, E-r-i-c-k-s-o-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you referring to a receipt ?
Mr. Kratz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. May I see it?
Mr. Kratz. She was a collector of dues, also.
Mr. Tavenner. Is this a receipt for dues paid by you and signed
by her?
Mr. Kratz. Yes,
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to read it into the record. It is dated
March 1945 :
Received of Al Kratz, three and no/100 dollars, 2d quarter, April through June,
$3.00.
J. Erickson.
What was her first name ?
Mr. Kratz. Jean, J-e-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether she was known also by an-
other name, Jean Horn ?
Mr. Kratz. That was her maiden name.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir, if you will proceed.
Mr. Kratz. And then there was another sister by the name of Wilma
Persley, and her maiden name, of course, was Horn, but she married
Persley.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the last name?
Mr. Kratz. P-e-r-s-1-e-y, I believe that is the spelling of it.
Mr. Tavenner. You have named two of the sisters, and was there
a third?
Mr. Kratz. Annette Horn was her name.
Mr. Tavenner. Did any of the three sisters occupy a position in any
of the locals of the Farm Equipment Union?
Mr. Kratz. No. They were secretaries, mostly.
Mr. Tavenner. Secretaries in the offices of what people?
Mr. Kratz. Well, Grace at one time was in the International Office
as a secretary there. I believe she was secretary to Gerald Fielde. I
am not sure of that. •
Mr. Tavenner. You mean secretary of officials of the union ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE CHICAGO AREA 3713
Mr. Kratz. Yes. She was not employed in the shop, and therefore
she was not eligible for oftice in the union. But she was employed in
the office as a stenographer.
Mr. Tavenner. In the office of the union ?
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. That is as to one sister ; and what as to the other
two?
Mr. Kratz. This was Grace. And the other. Annette, was con-
nected with the packing house in some way, and I don't know how, and
I didn't have very much contact with them as to their work, other than
being a member of the Roseland Branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of any other persons who
were members of the Roseland branch of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kratz. No ; I don't believe I can.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned the name of Gerald Fielde a moment
ago as being the person in whose office Grace Zarniack was employed.
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. "Were you personally acquainted with Mr. Fielde?
Mr. Kratz. Yes ; I have met with him on various occasions ; being
an officer of the union, naturally we would meet quite often with the
international.
Mr. Tavenner. AAliat office did he hold in the union?
Mr. Kratz. Well, at that time he was the secretary-treasurer, finan-
cial secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Ta^tsnner. Do you know of your own knowledge whether he
was a member of the Communist Party at any time ?
Mr. Kratz. No. I never met at any Communist meeting with Jerry
Fielde.
^Ir. Tavenner. During the period that you weie a member of the
Roseland branch of the party, what official positions in the Com-
munist Party did you hokl, if any (
Mr. Kratz. That was the only one, the dues collector; that was
the only time I held that office.
Mr. Tavenner. Was your branch of the party visited by members
of the Communist Party on a higher level?
jMr. Kratz. Yes. There was a man by the name of John Schmies,
I couldn't spell his name, and he came there on various occasions;
especially when we were having any labor trouble he would come in.
Mv. Tavenner. What was his position in the Communist Party,
if you know?
Mr. Kratz. They told me that he was the field organizer, and, now,
Avhether he was or not, I had no official recognition of that.
( Representative Harold H. Velde left hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he was affiliated with any
union, or not?
Mr. Kratz. No.
(Rej^resentative Morgan M. ]\Ioulder returned to hearing room.)
Mr. Kratz. He was working quite a bit in steel, they told me, but,
however, being affiliated with a union, I Avouldn't know that.
]Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of others on a higher
level Avho visited your branch?
Mr. Kratz. No. Any time that there was any meetings that were
on a liigher srale, they were usually joint, all of the branches were
called in.
24044— 52— lit. 1 7
3714 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IX THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavekner. How many l)ran('hes of the Coiinniinist Party were
or«-aiiized within the Farm Equipment Union that you were ac-
quainted witli ?
Mr. Kratz. Well, this is the only one that I was acquainted with,
because we never visited the other branches of the party.
Mr, Tavenxer. You never attended a fraction meeting of repre-
sentatiA'CS from the various branches?
Mr. Kratz. No. There was only one meeting of that nature that
was held while I was a member of the party, and that was a fellow
by the name of Peterson, and Charles Lawson, who came from 101,
and held a meeting with us one night. It was a meeting of about an
hour's duration.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the first name of Peterson ?
Mr. Kratz. No; I can't. He was on the executive board of K'l,
that I know, but we always called him Peterson.
Mr. Tavenker. Can you give us any further descriptive informa-
tion about him that may help us to identify the one that you are
speaking of ?
Mr. Kratz. He was a short, stocky fellow.
Mr. Tavenxer. Do you know in what shop he was employed ?
Mr. Kratz. He was "at the Tractor Works.
Mr. Tavex'X'er. At the Tractor Works?
Mr. Kratz. Yes.
Mr. Tavexx*er. Do you know where he lived ?
Mr. Kratz. No ; I don't know.
Mr. Tavex'xer. Well, on the occasion of this meeting, how many
representatives frcmi different locals were present?
]\Ir. Kratz. There Avas just the two from 101. and they came down
there to meet with the members of the party from 107.
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to hearing room.)
Mr. Ta\tenner. Now, you spoke of one person as a member of the
Roseland Branch who was a member of either IH.S or 104.
Mr. Kratz. That is the man who signed that dues thing. Hassen.
There Avere two members that I knew of in this local. I don't recall
the other man's name.
Mr. Tave?tx"er. Do you Ir ow whether Communist Party cells Avere
organized withi]i any of the locals in addition to 101 and 103 or Ki-l,
and your own local of 107?
Mr. Kratz. No. I helped organize three or four plants thei-e on
the South Side, and there Avas no attempt made to organize any of
the Communist cells in that.
Mr. Tavenxer. As you have stated, you did not attend fraction
meetings, and it is possible that cells had been organized in other
locals AA^thout your knowledge, isn't that true?
Mr. Kratz. That could have been very easily true.
Mr. Taat^nner. Did your club at any time receiA^e a request or a
direction from the Conununist F'arty on higher levels to cause the
union to contribute funds for any project that the Communist Party
Avas interested in. that you can recall?
Mr. Kratz. Not directly: no.
Mr. Tavexxer. Well. Avas it done indirectly?
Mr. Kratz. Well, to this degree : That if it was beneficial to labor,
naturally it Avas presented on the floor of membership, and member-
COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3715
sliip would ijrant it. And. iiow. those in tlie party would know that
the party was back of it. However, if the program Avas such that it
would be presented to the membership that it was beneficial to labor,
they would contribute and it Avould be perfecth' legal, but as far as
any under-the-table contributions, we made none.
^Ir. Tavi'^nxek. Were there any occasions when the Communist
Party endeavored to dictate to you how you should perform your
duties as a union official?
]Mr. Kratz. Yes. Whether this man was sent by the Communist
Party or not, I don't know. However, he was a member of the Com-
munist Party, a man by the name of Clemmons, and he was not in the
Roseland cell.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know his first name?
Mr. Kratz. He came before the executive board one evening.
Mr. Tavenner. The executive board of what ?
Mr. Kratz. Local 107. And he had a copy of the Daily Worker,
and he stated at that time that this was the paper — he had the paper,
and he pounded on the table, and he said, "This is the policy we should
adopt in this union."' And he said we should take this paper and go
down at the next membership meeting and notify the membership
that from that time on, from the time of the meeting, that that would
be the policy of the union, what was in that paper.
Mr. Tavenner. And that paper was the Daily Worker?
Mv. Kratz. I informed him at that time that the people had joined
Local 107 of the Farm Equipment LTnion, and that they did not join
the Conununist Party, and if he went to try to shove the Coimnunist
Party down their throats, that I was afraid he was going to run into
trouble.
Mr. Tavenxer. Just a moment. You recognized that the Daily
W^orker was the medium through which the Communist Party passed
on its directives
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr, Tavenner. Which it m turn had received from higher author-
ities, to the rank and file members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. That has been very d'Minitely shoAvn in testimony
before this committee, even to the extent' of directives originating in
foreign countries.
All right, now, will you proceed ?
Mr. Kratz. I was running for president of the local, and I was
opposed by a man b}' the name of George Jerita. and Grace Zarniack;
and Joe Van Norstrand, who at that time was a field representative of
the Farm Equipment Workers L^nion, came to me and told me that
I had to run Clemmons as vice president, and he said he was colored,
and that he would be quite an asset to the union to have a colored man
on the executive board in that position.
I told them that I refused, not on the basis of his color, but on the
basis he wasn't qualified to hold the job. They informed me at that
time
Mr. Tavenner. Who do you mean by "they"?
Mr. Kratz. Joe Van Norstrand and Grace Zarniack informed me
at that time that if I didn't carry Clemmons along with me on my
slate, that the party would not support me. And I told them that that
3716 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
was definitely out ; that I believed if a man was capable of doing the
job he should get the job, but I didn't feel he was capable. So I lost
the election by 30 votes. And some of the fellows in the party that I
have mentioned here, that I went out and worked for them on every
election, they wouldn't even go out and work for me at all, or put in
a word one way or the other, and wouldn't even take my slates and
distribute my slates. So I lost the lection by 30 votes.
Mr. Tavenner. So when you refused to comply with the Communist
Party attitude on the subject, you lost their support ?
Mr. Kratz. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. When the individual appeared before your execu-
tive board with the Daily Worker and insisted that the Daily Worker
lay down the policy for'the union, how many of the members of the
executive board who were present at that meeting were known to you
to be members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kratz. Three.
INIr. Ta\t3NNer. Who were they?
Mr, Kratz. There was George Shanta, Andy Rossi, and myself.
Mr. Tavenner. Were there other members present at the time who
were known to you not to be members of the party?
Mr. Kratz. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How many persons were present?
Mr. Kratz. Well, George Shanta at that time was the vice presi-
dent, and the board normally consisted of nine. And Earl Jessup was
on an errand down to the international office, and so there were five
others beside us.
Mr. Tavenner. Was any vote taken at the time ?
Mr. Kratz. No ; there wasn't. There was no vote, and after I had
made the statement as I did, that closed it. and he picked up his
papers and went out.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the reason for your leaving the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Kratz. Well, I stated that. It was because they wanted to
dictate to me who I was to carry along with me in the election there,
and that was one of the reasons ; and then I found out the real reason
of the Communist Party, and it was contrary to my principles and
belief.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Has anyone approached you since sending in your
resignation, with a view of having you rejoin the Communist Party?
Mr. Kratz. Yes. Joe Van Norstrand came up to me and he told
me just to forget all about it, and come on back in.
Mv. Tavenner. When was that ?
Mr. Kratz. It was a short time after I had resigned.
IMr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Walter. Any further questions ?
Mr. Moulder. I have no questions.
Mr. Frazier. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. I have no questions.
Mr. Jackson. Was the fact generally known by the other workers
in your union that the officers you have named here today were in
fact officials at the same time in Communist Party cell organiza-
tions ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3717
Mr. Kratz. "Well, I don't think that there was any doubt as to their
knowing that I was, because I had so stated before the executive board
that I was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr, Jackson. Did that knowledge also extend to the other officials
whom you have named as being, members ?
Mr. Kratz. They have been accused of it, but I don't know, as a
fact, that they really know it. I think they more or less pass it off,
because it is merely stated as a "red herring," and they leave it go at
that.
Mr. Jackson. Previous to the election that you lost by 30 votes,
had you won election to that office before that?
Mr. Kratz. No.
]Mr. Jackson. This was the first time you had run ?
Mr. Kratz. For the president ; yes.
Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. I have one question, and I forget whether this subject
was covered or not, but did you ever sign a non-Communist affidavit
to comply with the Taft-Hartley Act?
Mr. Kratz. My office didn't require it,
Mr. Ta\'^nner. His membership was prior to the period of en-
forcement of the act.
Mr, Jackson. What was your understanding as to the total number
of Communist branches, or membership is a thing that is always of
interest to anyone in an organization, and what was your best under-
standing of the total Communist membership in the city of Chicago
during that period?
Mr. Kratz. Well, I didn't have any idea what it was.
Mr. Jackson. Or as to the number of branches or cells?
Mr. Kratz. No; I had attended meetings in various places, but in
some cases I brought other people there, not interested in Commu-
nist activity, necessarily, but just brought them to the meeting, so it
would be pretty hard to estimate.
Mr. Walter. Any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No. sir.
Mr. Walter. The witness is discharged, with the thanks of the
committee.
We will now recess to 2 : 30.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 50 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 : 30 p. m.
of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 : 45 p. m.. Representatives John
S. Wood. Francis E. Walter, Morgan M. Moulder, James B. Frazier,
Jr., Harold H. Velde, and Donald L. Jackson being present.)
Mr. Wood. The hearing will be in order.
Who do you call ? \Yhat is the problem ?
Mr. RoTHSTEiN. This morning, as a result of some discussion, I
was advised for the first time, for me at any rate, that this committee
is not avei-se to extending the date of return of a subpena, if the per-
sons thus subpenaed are heavily engaged in whatever their normal
run of activities are, and as a result of the discussion I then requested
that the subpenas to IMr. Grant Oakes, Mr. Gerald Fielde, and Mr.
DeWitt Gilpin be extended because those three individuals are pres-
3718 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
ently engao;ed in attempting to negotiate a contract, with others, of
coiirse, Avith the International Harvester Co. and their appearance
here is necessarily dehiying- the progress of those negotiations, or will
have that eifect. I made the request at the request of the persons snb-
penaed, and in aid of the request I offer the following statement from
a letter which has just been handed to me which purports to have
been sent out to employees by the International Harvester Co. :
If UE stated tliat a number of the union leaders have been summoned to
appear before the Un-American Activities Committee in Chicago here this
week, and the committee of the House of Representatives specializes in investi-
satious of subversive activities, particularly connnunism and Communists
in the United States. It seems likely that the absence of FE-UE officials for
these hearin.Lcs may cause some delay in negotiations of this week.
The negotiations ought to be concluded, if it is possible to conclude
them, because there are 26,000 men on strike. The reason I now make
the motion is that I thought that the chairman pro tem of the com-
mittee this morning, and Mr. Tavenner, agreed that I might interrupt
the proceedings long enough to make the motion or request, I guess
is a more graceful way to put it.
Mr. Wood. The matter was discussed in executive session just prior
to opening this session, and it was determined by the committee that in
keeping with the previous policy of the committee that we will not
retain here those witnesses who are actually engaged in this negotia-
tion work.
Mr. Tavexxek, In the case where tliere is a strike pending, as I
understand it.
]Mr. AVooD. That is what I am talking about. But since they are
here, counsel does desire, I believe, to ask them one question, an.d the
answer to which might determine the question of whether we would
want them further or not. So with that undei'standing you may pro-
ceed, Mr. Counsel, and as soon as you have interrogated them with one
or two questions, I will ask that we excuse them from further attend-
ance at this hearing.
Mr. Tavenner. I think it would save time if we would call all three
at the same time.
Mr. Grant Oakes, Mr. Gerald Fielde, and Mr. DeWitt Crilpin.
Mr. Wood. I will ask you gentlemen to please, each of you, raise
your right hand. You and each of you solemnly swear the evidence
you give this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Oakes. I do.
Mr. Fielde. I do.
Mr. Gilpin. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GRANT W. OAKES, GERALD FIELDE, AND DeWITT
GILPIN, ACCOMPANIED BY THEIR COUNSEL, DAVID B. ROTH-
STEIN
Mr. Tavenner. Which is Mr. Grant Oakes ? Mr. Oakes, do you feel
that your presence here would deter you in your official duties in con-
nection with the strike which is pending ?
Mr. Oakes. As the chairman of the Harvester Farm Equipment
Council, my duties should be attemjjting to conclude the negotiations
as quickly as possible, and that certainh' is my desire.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3719
Mr. Tavenner. Is it your opinion tliat it is necessary that you leave
here for that purposed
Mr. Oakes. I am quite sure, sir.
Mr. Ta\t:xner. Which is Mr. Gerald Fielde i' I want to ask you
the same question.
Mr. Fielde. 1 am the chief spokesman and have l)een for a period
of years in the negotiations with tlie International Harvester Co. This
trip I am again chief s})okesman, and of course the negotiations are
much more difficult, inasmuch as this trip the International Harvester
Co. is attempting to cut wages in our new contract. I state that be-
cause it complicates the matters further, and you have to have con-
sistency of relationship with the company so that you might be in a
better position to expedite negotiations and thereby settle the strike,
Mr. Tavexner. Now, yon haven't answered my question.
Mr. Fielde. Yes I did. I said "Yes," to begin with, I believe.
Mr. Tavenxer. You consider it necessary and important in the per-
formance of your duties to leave?
Mr. Fielde. I will say yes, as a member of conciliation, Mr. J.
Olliver, from the United States Conciliation Service — Commissioner
J. Olliver — begged and pleaded with me last Friday to attend the
negotiations, and I told him he would have to discuss that with the
House of Representatives or at least its subcommittee.
Mr. Ta^'ennp:r. Mr. DeWitt Gilpin, I desire to ask yon the same
question. Do you consider it is necessary in the performance of your
duties that yon leave for that purpose?
Mr. GiLPix. I do, but I feel that my })ersonal opinion about thtit
matter was strengthened yesterday by the Harvester Council, elected
delegates, negotiating with the company, who met and discussed this
question and considered the $26 million annually in wage cuts that the
conipany is trying to impose upon them, and voted unanimously to
request that the three of ns seek from this committee permission to get
into the negotiations, undeterred by this committee, and try to effect
a settlement.
Mr. Tavenxer. All right, sir.
Then I want to ask you, each of you, one further question : Mr.
Oakes, are von now or have von ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Oakes. I decline to answer, asserting the fifth-amendment
privilege.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Fielde, are you now or have you ever been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Fielde. I decline, and claim my privilege under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Gilpin, are you now or have you ever been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. GiLPix. I decline, asserting my privilege inider the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Chairman, in light of the answers, we would
desire to question them fiu'ther at another time.
Mr. Wood. Will you give them further notice, or do yon want to
now fix the time?
Mr. Tavexxer. I believe it would be better to extend th.e })resent
subpenas in accordance with the request yon made.
Mr. Wood. And not fix a time now?
3720 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. I think we slioiild extend it a definite period, and if
it is necessary to change it Ave can change it later.
Mr. Wood. What chite do you suggest?
Mr. Tavenner. Let me confer with counsel a moment.
(Mr. Tavenner and Mr. Rothstein conferred.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I suggest 30 days, and I don't know
what clay of the week tliat would be.
Mr. Chairman, I would suggest the 16th day of October, in Wash-
ington.
Mr. Wood. Veiy well, the subpenas will be extended until that date,
and in the event there is any change in the program of the committee
you will be amply notified in advance. You gentlemen are excused
until that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. John Cooke.
Mr. Wood. Are you Mr. Cooke ?
Mr. Cooke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wood. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the
evidence you shall give in this subcommittee will b-e the trutli. the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Cooke. I do.
Mr. Wood. Mr. Cooke, are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Cooke. No.
Mr. Wood. At any time you find you want to confer with counsel,
please let me know.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD COOKE
Mr. Tavennp:r. What is your name?
Mr. Cooke. John Edward Cooke.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Cooke. Chicago, 111. ; February 25, 1917.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you now reside in Chicago?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Chicago?
Mr. Cooke. Thirty-five years.
Mr. Tavenner. All your life ?
Mr. Cooke. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your edu-
cational training has been?
Mr. Cooke. Grammar school, high school, and intermittently col-
lege, but never to complete any time.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present employment ?
Mr. CooKE. International Harvester Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that a full-time employment?
Mr. Cooke. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of any union which has a con-
tract Avith that company?
Mr. Cooke. No.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you held that position ?
Mr. Cooke. Approximately a year and a half.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that time how were you employed ?
Mr. Cooke. I was an assembler in the shoj^. Prior to that, you
mean ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3721
Mr. Tavenner. Suppose you tell us what your record of employ-
ment has been back, say, to 1935.
Mr. CooKE. Well, from the year 1935 to 1937 I was clerk in a liquor
store in Hyde Park area. In 1937 I was hired at the Harvester Co.
and, excluding lay-offs, I have been working for Harvester ever
since.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, when you first became employed in the Har-
vester Co., were you a member of any union?
I\Ir. Cooke. I was a member of what they call Employees' Mutual,
which I think subsequently was disbanded by the National Labor
Relations Board.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you subsequently join any other union?
Mr. CooKE. Yes; in 1942 I joined the Farm Equipment Workers'
Union.
Mr. Tavenner. The Farm Equipment Workers.
Mr. CooKE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What local of the Farm Equipment Workers ?
Mr. Cooke. Local 108.
Mr. Tavenner. And how long were you a member of local 108?
Mr. Cooke. Up until 1951, it would be somewhere around February.
Mr. Tavenner. With what national labor union was local 108 affili-
ated or by what organization was it administered^
Mr. Cooke. The Farm Equipument Workers of America, CIO, at
that time, up until I imagine it was 1948 or 1949, I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold an}' office in your local union, local
108?
Mr. CooitE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What offices have you held in that local?
Mr. Cooke. From about 1943 to 1945, I was a chief steward in the
malleable foundry of the plant, and from the beginning of 1945 until
approximately February of 1947 I was chairman of the bargaining
committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Any other positions?
Mr. Cooke. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. In a general way, what were your duties as a chief
steward ?
Mr. Cooke. To handle grievances within a given department and
upon nonsettlement refer them to the next step, the grievance com-
mittee, and along with that, at that particular time, there was no check-
oif in the shops and the responsibility of collecting union dues became
the chief steward's responsibility as well.
Mr. Tavenner. What were your duties as chairman of the bargain-
ing committee ?
Mr. Cooke. Both to coordinate activities of the grievance committee
and to handle the grievances of problems within the plant, participate
in the contract negotiations, and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any other position as an employee
of the union ?
IMr. Cooke. None whatsoever.
Mr. Tavenner. Did local 108 have an executive board ?
Mr. Cooke. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the executive board ?
24044— 52— pt. 1 8
3722 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Cooke. Well, according to the local's constitution and bylaws, at
that time I was to sit in on all board meetings with voice but no vote,
and _you can call that a member if you want to.
ISlr. Tavenner. How many persons composed the executive board of
your local ?
Mr. Cooke. I would say between 7 and 8, 1 am not sure.
Mr. Tavennepv. Are you now or have you ever been a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Cooke. I am not now, but I have been.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a member of the Communist
Tarty?
Mr. CooKE. In 1945, somewhere around the early part of 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you leave the Communist Party ?
Mr. Cooke. Some time in the early part of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
the time you were chief steward of your local?
Mr. CooiiE. No ; I was not.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Were you a member at any time while you were
chairman of tlie bargaining committee?
Mr. CooKE. Yes.
(Re])resentative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. And therefore you were a member during part of
tlie time that you sat in executive meetings of your local ?
Mr. CooKJi. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Who invited you to become a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Cooke. I would say I had several invitations. Do you mean
who finally signed me up?
Mr, Tavenner. Will you just explain to the committee all of the
circumstances under which you weie recruited into the Communist
Party?
Mr. CooKE. Well, that would go back to 1944.
Mr. Taa'enner. Would you speak a little louder, please?
Mr. Cooke. I say that would go back to 1944, and approximately
June of 1944 I attended as a representative of local 108, what was
known as Farm Equipment Workers, CIO, trade-union school, sup-
posedly to keep people from individual shops, to train them in union
procedures, grievances, economics, a little psychology, and jMiblic
speaking. That was held at the Bon Country Club, in Waukegan, 111.,
I think it was about a 4-week session of school. At that time the cur-
riculum at the school was in my estimation rather straitlaced with
union procedures and so forth, but between sessions of tlie classes,
various students more or less a])proached you to the extent of direct
lino of thinking, that it was in the Communist manner.
Now, it has been some time ago and I doubt if I could remember
names other than other students that went with me. Following that,
there was a local union election held later on that year, I say approxi-
mately December of 1944, at which time I ran for grievance com-
mitteeman, and I won the election and subsequently was elected by
the grievance connnittee as their chairman. Directly following that
I was approached and propositioned again to join the Communist
Party, and I was told there was no way to get ahead in the labor
movement unless you were a member of the Communist Party. Of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 372S
course, I g:iiess maybe it is a matter of beino; foolish, but being ambi-
tious as well, I yielded to the plea, and I signed up.
:Mr. Taaenxer. ^Y[\o was it that told you that it would develop to
your advantage in the union work if you became a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Cooke. For one, it was Pope Huff, who at that time was an
executive board member at large, I think, of the international union.
Mr. Tavennek. Pope Huff, H-u-f-f ?
Mr. CoOKE. I think so. P-o-])-e H-u-f-f,
Mr. Tavenxer. Did any other individual make a similar state-
ment to you as an inducement for you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. CooKE. Well, I will say Bruno Bartnick, B-r-u-n-o B-a-r-t-
n-i-c-k. or it might be "n-i-k."
Mr. Tavenxer. As a result of what was said to you, what did you
do about joining the party ?
Mv. Cooke. Well, I joined.
Mr. Tavexxer. And Avliere were you assigned?
Mr. Cooke. Well, interestingly enough it wasn't the Connnunist
Party at that time, as I recall. It was the (^ommunist Political As-
sociation, and at that time I was assigned to what, if I recall exactly,
was known as Washington Park Club. It was considered a neighbor-
hood club.
Mr. Tavexnkr. At that })articular time, during the period of the
Connnunist Political Association, the cells of the party were not organ-
ized in the branches in tlie various factories aud shops?
Mr. Cooioi. M}' recollection is tliat lh;it came just a little later,
Mr. Tavex^x^er. Well, tell us about that, about what you know about
the coming on of this a little later.
Mr. Cooke. Well, as I recall, some time in, I would say it was mid-
1945, 1 would say somewhere around June or July, some leading Com-
munist in France by the name of Duclos made some sort of a press
statement that the Connnunist Party of the United States was toward
the reaciionar}^ side as party veruacular, as I understand it, that is ther
sort of language that would be used. It was meek and submissive,
and Browder was hobnobbing with Wall Street, and so on.
That called for some sort of reorganization, as I understand it,
coming direct from the to}) level. As a result of that, and I wasn't a
delegate, but there was some sort of convention held by the Communist
Party and a complete reorganization took place, in which I think
William Foster took over the complete reins, and Earl Browder was-
out. Also as a result of that, Gil Green was assigned to the Chicaga
region, and including Chicago, Indiana, and this area, and I don't
know just the composition of it. Then at that time shop units, or as
you prefer to call them cells, were set up and I was assigned to McCor-
mack shop unit.
Mr. Tavexxer. How many persons were members of the Communist
cell or branch which you first united with?
Mr. Cooke. Well, you see, as to that, again I couldn't give you the
exact number because I never had access to any files, and so forth, but
I could say anywhere from 10 to 30,
Mr. Tavexxer. Was that branch or cell of the party made up of
representatives from various locals and various areas of the com.-
munity ?
3724 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Cooke. I would say a combination of both.
Mr. Tavenner. But when you were assigned to a shop unit, you were
assigned to the unit in which you worked ?
Mr. Cooke. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were other persons from this community branch
assigned to the same unit with you ?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they?
Mr. CooKE. This Pope Huff, and Beatrice Huff, his wife, Joseph
Pentecost, Charles Lassiter. That is some of them, and I can't remem-
ber all of them.
Mr. Tavenner. Who actually signed you in the party ?
Mr, CooKE. Beatrice Huff.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you speak a little louder ?
Mr. CooKE. Beatrice Huff.
(Representative Harold H, Velde returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. Was she the wife of Pope Huff?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of having been chairman of the bar-
gaining committee of local 108. Were any members of that com-
mittee other than yourself members of the Communist Party? To
your knowledge?
Mr. Cooke. Offhand I would say none. I am trying to think of the
composition of the committee; you know one year we had a change-
over. None.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether any members of the execu-
tive committee of local 108 were members of the Communist Party?
Mr. CooKE. Two that I know of, that I can recall offhand. One was
Clarence Stoecker.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Cooke. I think it is S-t-o-e-c-k-e-r, and one other was Tony
Matusek. Anthony I think would be the correct name. At one time
there was also Bruno Bartnick, I gave the name previously, and
Joseph Pentecost.
Mr. Tavenner. They were all members of the executive committee ?
Mr. Cooke. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner, And also members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoOKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, did these individuals or any of them who
were members of the executive committee also hold other positions
in local 108 ?
Mr. Cooke. In what manner, I mean I don't quite follow you.
Mr. Tavenner, Well, they were on the executive committee, you
said,
Mr. Cooke. That means they were officers, they were union officers,
president, vice president, and so on.
Mr. Tavenner, Yes; I understand.
Mr, CooKE. I think Bruno Bartnick was legislative director, and
Joseph Pentecost was the publicity and educational director, and
Clarence Stoecker was financial secretary, and Anthony Matusek was
recording secretary.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, from the knowledge acquired by you, while
you were a member of the Communist Party, what other shop units
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3725
were there which had Communist Party branches located within-
them ?
Mr, Cooke. Well, I would say now, not having any factual evidence
but from hearsay, I would say there was a shop unit at Tractor Work&
and there was a shop unit at West Pullman and there was one at
McCormack. Now, I could go a little further into that on my exodus
from the party, that is to say how I went out and the reasons why I
went out, would tend to bring that particular point out.
Mr. Tavenner. I will not ask you anything further about that at
the moment.
How many persons were members of your shop unit, No. 108, in local
108?
Mr. CooKE. I think somewhere between 15 and 25, somewhere, in
that vicinity.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names at this time of any mem-
bers of your shop unit of the Communist Party whose names you have
not already given us ?
Mr. Cooke. I gave you Pope Huff and Beatrice Huff. Hazel Gray.
That is all I can recall offhand. It is hard, it has been about 6 years
ago, or 7 yeai*s ago.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Yes ; I recognize the difficulty of it.
Do you recall
Mr. CooKE. Booker White.
Mr. Tavenner. Did either of these persons. Hazel Gray or Booker
White, hold any position within the union? That is, the local union?
Mr. Cooio:. I think Booker White was a chief steward, but Hazel
Gray did not work in the shop. Hazel Gray worked in the union
office.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Were there any occasions on which representatives
of the Communist Party or you may say the high levels of the Com-
munist Party visited your meetings?
]Mr. Cooke. At all meetings there was someone present.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give us the names of higher level Com-
munists who assisted you in your work ?
Mr. Cooke. There were Vickie Kramer, Fred Fine.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what positions these people held ?
Mr. CooKE. All I know is they were members of the central com-
mittee, and that is it. Fred Fine, I think I heard somewhere that
Fred Fine had been assigned to the labor division of the party, or
something. Almost everything that is done is hearsay; it is word
of mouth, and you don't get anything written to cover anything of
that type. But there was an additional one, Ed Star. Those were
the two.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where Star was from ?
Mr. CooKE. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio presided at the meetings that were held in
3'our shop unit?
Mr. CooKE. Clarence Stoecker was chairman of the shop unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know or recall to whom you paid your dues?
Mr. Cooke. Beatrice Huff.
Mr. Tavenner. How much dues did you pay ?
Mr. Cooke. That I can't remember, it might have been $1 a month,
and I can't recall.
3726 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Were any special assessments made for special
purposes ?
Mr. Cooke. One time, once.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that ?
Mr. Cooke. Well, that was a special assessment to send one member
of the plant cell or plant unit to some sort of special school for 2
weeks, and it was more or less on a donation basis, all members were
contacted and asked to donate as much as they could to supplement
liis salary, so that he could go to this 2-week school.
Mv. Tavenner. What kind of a school was this?
Mr. Cooke. Not having attended, I don't know, but from what I
heard from the steward it was a school dealing with party policy
and party teachings and so forth. .
Mr. Tavenner. But it was a Communist Party member who was
taking up the collection?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. To send a person to a Communist Party school?
Mr. CoOKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. And they said the money was to supplement the
person's salar}^?
Mr. CooKE. Well, to make up for his salary he woudn't get because
lie wouldn't be at work.
Mr. Taa-enner. AYho was the person selected for the school ?
Mr. Cooke, Joseph Pentecost.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where the school was located ?
Mr. CooKE. The exact location, I am not sure of, it was somewhere
in Des Plaines.
Mr. Taa^nner. Did he attend the school to your knowledge ?
Mr. CooKE, Yes.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you attend Communist Party meetings where
representatives were present from other locals ?
Mr. CooKE. None that I could recall, not offhand. There were a
couple of early Sunday meetings held at Turner Hall on Roosevelt
Road somewhere around Western Avenue, but it was never definitely
understood that these were all party people at this meeting, and so I
couldn't tell, but at these meetings there would be representatives from
other locals, but not being able to nail it down as definitely a Com-
munist Party meeting. It was mostly to map strategy for the local
unions, and the lake district, the district of Farm Equipment Workers.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever selected to attend a Communist
Party school after you became a member of the party ?
Mr, CooKE. No, I wasn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with any of the following peo-
ple : Edwin Schoenfeld ?
Mr. Cooke. When you say acquainted with, that means do I know
them now or have I known them ']
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever known him?
Mr. Cooke. Edwin Schoenfeld, yes, at the time I think he was edu-
cational director for Farm Equipment Workers of America, CIO.
Pie was also the director of this trade school that I attended in
1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of tlie Com-
munist Party?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3727
Mr. Cooke. Xot definitely, I would say that the higher level offi-
cials in Farm Equipment kept that actual knowledge of their mem-
hership away from the lower shop units, and so forth. Now, we
suspected, I suspected, but it isn't a matter of proof.
]Mr. Tavenner. I don't want what you suspect about it. I have a
list here of six names and I am going to ask you to look at them, and
state whether or not any of them were known to you to be members
of the Communist Party, rather than to call their names.
(Document was handed to witness.)
Mr. CooKE'. Shoidd I check them ?
Mr. Tavenner. Xo; just tell the committee if there is any person
on the list known to you to be a member of the Communist Party,
state the name to the committee and identify them as far as you can.
Mr. Cooke. Well, this Edwin t^choenfeld, it goes back to the ques-
tion you said you didn't want to go into that at that time, but it goes
back to the question that I posed to my party cell when I left, and it
is questionable, because I didn't receive an answer to whether or not
he is a party member or not.
Mr. TA\rENNER. Well, all right, will you proceed with the others?
Mr. Cooke. The second one, Rachael Carter, at this school that was
held in Des Plaines, I know she attended.
Mr. Walter. Was it Carter?
Mr. CooKE. Eachael Carter.
Mr. Tavenner. Do not call out the name unless you can identify
them.
Mr. Cooke. That is what I identified it, to that extent.
Fred Moore was a member of the shop unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what unit would that be ?
Mr. Cooke. IMcCormack.
Mr. Tavenner. Would that be local 108?
Mr. Cooke. That is right.
Alvin Frisbie was a member of the shop unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that mean local 108?
Mr. Cooke. That is right.
And Booker White was a member of the shop unit.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether any of those that you have
named have withdrawn from the Communist Party?
Mr. Cooke. That I have named from there ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Cooke. Well, you see, the point is, I wouldn't know, because I
went out in the early 1946's, as I pointed out, and so I wouldn't know
what has happened from 1946 on.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, they were members at the time that
jou left the party ?
Mr. Cooke. That is when I am speaking of.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of the existence of what was known
as the farm equipment commission of the Communist Party?
Mr. Cooke. Well, that is the question that I proposed, the night that
I went out.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, let us hear about it now.
Mr. Cooke, I did not receive an answer. Actually, and I can't think
of the exact date, but it was sometime early in 1946, I had been some-
Avhat at odds with the method of the conduct of McCormack cell meet-
3728 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
ings, and I had been at odds with representatives present there from
the central committee, and it had just rolled itself up to a big snow-
ball, where I had definitely decided to take a position. This particular
meeting that was held on the 18th in Kacine, I posed three questions
to the party group, and also the chairman of the party, that I wanted
clai'ification on, or else I could no longer continue as a member of that
unit.
One of them was: Was there a farm equipment commission set up
by the Communist Party to administer policy to the Harvester plants*?
I had heard that there was, and I posed it out in the unit.
Mr. Tavenner. When you speak of "commission," you mean a
commission of Communist Party members?
Mr. Cooke. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Which would determine the policies to be followed
by the rank and file of the union ?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
I also asked what was its composition. And, secondly, what was the
resident committee.
You see, this commission had been set up, as I understood it, and
as I heard, to cover all of the Harvester plants FE represented, and
there were supposed to be people from each plant chosen for this
particular farm-equipment commission.
Then, besides that, they had gathered together and appointed what
they called a resident committee, and that committee was supposed
to carry policy between meetings of the entire commission.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, a resident committee of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Cooke. Of the Communist Party, of the farm-equipment plants.
The composition, as I recall, of the resident committee was Ed
Schoenfeld and Clarence Stoeker, and one other, and there were three
members, and I can't recall the third one. But I posed these questions
at this meeting, and I wanted to know.
Well, I didn't get an answer, obviously, because the cell members
weren't supposed to know about things like that.
Secondly, I proposed another question, that I disagreed with the
conduct of the meetings, inasmuch as when shop questions were dis-
cussed or shop problems were discussed in the meeting, instead of
getting a direct discussion on the immediate shop problem, there was
always a drift to try to tie it in with the Iranian situation or some
international situation, to tie it in as cause and effect of this particular
individual shop situation. I couldn't quite agree with that line of
thinking.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. In that connection, did that also
mean that the Communist Party was endeavoring to get the unions
to take positions on international complicated j)roblems ?
Mr. CooKE. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Problems with which the labor union, as such, was
not concerned?
Mr. Cooke'. That is correct. And that was a disagreement that I
had.
The third one was a question of lip service to minority groups. In
my observation of the Farm Equipment Union, and also the party
conduct within the union, that there was actual more or less lip service
given to minority-group questions, and not any relative forward action.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3729
The only forward action was maybe to take, and I take this, to take
an individual Negro and put him on the executive board, and whether
he was qualified or whether he was capable and whether he could
do the job or not, that was immaterial. We have to make the show,
and so we put this individual in here. It was more or less sort of
a created position, and you might as well shut the individual off in
an office and leave him there, compared to what he could accomplish
or what he could do as far as making a showing on a minority question
was concerned. And I questioned that approach, and I questioned
it on the basis of a situation that I had noticed at a roller-skating
rink called White City, wherein there was a question of permitting
Negroes to skate in a public roller-skating rink. The place had been
picketed by some group that was fighting the minority question.
I posed it to the cell, and I said, "Now, you are always giving lip
service to this minority question. Why isn't any demonstrative action
being taken in regard to the situation out here at this particular roller-
skating rink?'' I wanted an answer to my question, that "You give
lip service, but what sort of action, actual action, have you taken on
the basis of the minority groups, and so forth?" I couldn't get an
answer to that.
Following that, I walked out of the meeting, and I said I could
no longer participate in the affairs of the shop unit, as long as my
questions remained unanswered.
And subsequently, I was notified that I was being put on trial by
the party.
Mr. Tavenner. I don't know as you have made it plain as to whom
you directed the questions.
Mr. Cooke. Well, at that meeting there was present — I directed
the question to the chair, and that was Clarence Stoecker, and I di-
rected it directly to the chair, because I knew or I had heard that he
was a member of this resident committee of this Farm Equipment
Commission, and I directed them directly to him, knowing that he
knew the answer by virtue of being a member of this resident com-
mittee of the commission. I directed the questions directly to the
chair, and to the members present there.
Mr. Tavenner. You said you received no answer ?
Mr. Cooke. That is correct.
Mr. Taa^enner. Did he just ignore your question, or evade it?
JNIr. Cooke. Actually, I posed my questions in a one, two, three fash-
ion ; and I posed one, and then I hesitated and I asked the chair, "Can
I get an answer to this question?" And on receiving no answer, or
no beating around the bush but just flat, and I think it was stark
consternation, or something of that type, I went into the second ques-
tion, and I asked for an answer, and there was no answer. And I
w-ent into the third question, and I asked for an answer. There was
no answer. And when I received no answer on the third question, I
said, "Well, until such time as my questions can be answered, I can
see no need in my participating any further in the business or in the
shop unit here," and I walked out of the meeting. The meeting
continued after I left.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever received an answer to any of those
questions ?
Mr. Cooke. No ; I have not.
3730 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Now, can you give us any more information relating^
to the functioning of the Communist connnission of which you have
spoken, the Farm Equipment Commission of the Communist Party?
Mr. Cooke. That is all I got on it, because immediately when I
got the news that it had been set up, the next meeting is when I posed
this point, and then walked out ; and from then on, my relations were
practically severed with the party, outside of the notification I was
being put on trial and notification that I was expelled from the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Tamsnner. Why were you expelled from the Communist Party ?
Mr. CooKE. Well, as I understand it, and with this party vernacular
I can't quite recall the tei-minology used in tlie specific charges, but
there were three charges leveled against me. The outstanding one
that I can recall is "rank opportunism," and the second and third I
can't recall the exact verbiage or vernacular that was used.
Mr. Tavenner. I thought possibly you had become "politically
unreliable," as we heard yesterday in several instances.
Mr. Cooke. Possibly, but it was used in more of a party approach on
party lang:uage. and they leveled three charges, and the first, I recall
definitely, was "rank opportunism."
Mr. Tavenner. Are there any occasions that you can desci-ibe to
the committee when the Communist Party, either through something
originating with this Farm Equipment Commission or elsewhere
within the Connnunist Party, endeavored to decide in advance of
union meetings what action the union'meeting would take with regard
to, say, the election of officers, or the taking of a position on any issue
or matter of policy?
(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., left hearing room.)
Mr. Cooke. Offhand, there is one incident I can recall, but it had
nothing to do with locals, it had something to do with the international,
and that was in 1946, in August, at the convention held in Milwaukee.
Gil Green
Mr. Tavenner. Convention of what organization ?
Mr. Cooke. Convention of the Farm Equipment Union-CiO, the
international union.
Gil Green was present at that convention, and he occupied a room
on the same floor as the convention.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is that ?
Mr. Cooke. Gilbert Green, I guess it is, and all I know is "Gil
Green."
Mr. Tavenner. Well, had you had any conference with Green prior
to the actual holding of the convention regarding the matter which
you are about to tell us of?
]Mr. CooivE. Yes; and I had other ones with him before that, too,,
one other I can recall.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, proceed.
Mr. Cooke. Wliere do you want me to proceed ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think you should begin at the first point of contact
with Green regarding the election of yourself as a delegate to that
convention.
Mr. Cooke. Well, it goes back to charges being filed against me in
the party, along the three points that I brought up, and the question
of not holding a trial.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3731
One day, Gil Green was b}' the union hall, and this was just prior
or about a month before the convention, and I said, I told Gil Green,
I said, "A^^iy don't you do your dirty work and get it over with?
If you are going to kick me out, go ahead and kick me out. But what
are you trying to do, let me go up to the convention with charges
hanging over my head, party charges?" And I said. "At least clear
the slate; whatever you are going to do with me, do it."
And he said, "Oh, that won't be hanging over your head at the
convention, Cookie. I think that you should forget all about that."
So I said, "Now, I am warning you, I don't want to see it take
place at the convention."
So. of course, I got up to the convention, and I got the frost treat-
ment from all of the delegates, because they knew that back in my
party cell I had charges over my head, and I wan pending trial in my
Mr. •Ta\T!:nner. Wait a minute. You were pending trial in the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Cooke. Yes.
Mr. Tavexner. But you got a cold shoulder in the convention of
the Farm Equipment Workers Union?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavexner. Because of the difficulties you had in the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Cooke. That is correct,
Mr. Taa-exxer. Well, this man Green, who was there at the time
of the convention, Avas he a member of the Farm Equipment Union?
Mr. CooKE. No. Gil Green was whatever you call him, the chairman
of the party.
Mr. Tavexxer. Of the Communist Party, but he followed your
convention on to Milwaukee?
Mr. CooKE. That is correct.
Mr. Tavexxer. What part did Green play in the Milwaukee con-
vention of the Farm Equipment Union?
(Representative Morgan M. Moulder returned to hearing room.)
j\Ir. CooKE. That is what I was getting to.
Approximately the day before the last day of th©^ convention, I
think it was the day before the last day of the convention, I am
not sure, the question came up about the election of Negroes to the
executive board of the convention. There had been resentment among
the Negi'o delegates as to the performance of the previous Negro
member of the executive board, and there had been questions about
possibilities of electing a new Negro to the executive board, that is,
two executive board jobs. It would possibly be open, and it was a
question of not reelecting this fellow, and electing two more.
(Representative Donald L. Jackson left hearing room.)
Mr. CooKE. Over tliis question a discussion took place in a hotel
room, attended by the Negi-o delegates at that convention, and also,
Gil Green. And the question arose there as to certain people's actions
during the convention, or something, as to the qualifications of the
individuals for the job, or something like that. And anyhow, in the
course of it, I can't recall the direct conversation, but in the course
of it Gil Green pointed an accusing finger at me as one who had
charges filed against me by the party back home in my local cell.
3732 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
And when that finger was pointed at me, I immediately wanted to
grab Gil Green, because I would probably have thrown him out of the
hotel, that was the way I felt, after being told that that would not
follow me to Milwaukee.
Following that, I was more or less told off in this meeting, when 1
quieted down. And subsequently, Pope Huff was reelected, and a fel-
low named A. J. Martin from East Moline.
Mr. Tavenner. Just what type of a meeting was this, which was
attended by Green ?
Mr. Cooke. Well, I will tell you, it was a meeting of the Xegro
delegates at the convention, and Gil Green sat in on it, and we were
trying to decide what Negroes would be elected to the executive board
of the Farm Equipment Workers International.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore, the Communist Party had done more
than just try to control your union on the lower levels; it was en-
deavoring to assert its influence and control over your national con-
vention ?
Mr. CooKE. I would say it had asserted it.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall any occasion when a slate of dele-
gates was chosen by the Communist Party at a secret Conmiunist Party
meeting before the slate was presented to a convention or meeting for
adoption ?
Mr. CooKE. I would say this : They Vv'eren't that naive. They
utilized a different approach. It was more or less to this extent : Let
the people go ahead and nominate who they want ; and then we will get
together with a committee of lUO nnd through this committee of 100
we will decide on who we will support, as long as we dominate this
committee of 100, and that is the way it was done. It was a little
round-about fashion.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you stated that you saw Green at the party
hall?
Mr. CooKE. No.
Mr. Tavenner. At the union hall, I meant to say at the union hall.
Mr. Cooke. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. What was his business at the union hall ?
Mr. CoOKE. I have no idea. I was in and out of the shop, and I came
out there one day and he was out there, and that is when I cornered
him and laid it out to him, and I don't know what he was doing there.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you seen him more than once at the union hall ?
Mr, Cooke. I would say two or three occasions.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what his business was there on any of
those occasions?
Mr. Cooke. No ; I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Green, or any other high-level member of the
Communist Party, ever appear ]3efore any union meeting at your
union, to your knowledge, or your executive board?
Mr. Cooke. I would say, offhand, no. Now, I remember once that
Arthur Howard addressed the steward body, or something of that
sort, in regard to his book; but high-level party officials, I would
say no.
Mr. Tavenner. After you returned from the national convention of
your union, were you approached by any member of the Communist
Party with regard to the action taken by the union with regard to the
delegates ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3733
]\Ir. Cooke. I was approached by Booker Wiite, wlio was on the
trial coniinittee of tlie party, and I was told by him that they were
going- to hold my trial now,\HKl that I could attend the hearing, and
more or less indicated that they were willing to forget and let bygones
be bygones. And, of course, I stated in no uncertain terms that I
wanted no part of their trial. They could do as they pleased, and
that was it.
Then following that, I was notified by Booker White that I had
been expelled from the party.
]Mr. Tavenner. Was any effort ever made at a later date to hava
you come back into the party ?
Mr. Cooke. No. I guess I must have made a pretty bad name for'
myself.
(Re]:)resentative Donald L. Jackson returned to hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. In the testimony this morning, a witness here testi-
fied that he had been a member of local 107 and had been a member of
the Communist Party, and further testified that there was a person
who appeared at the Roseland Branch of the Communist Party from
local 101, and that his name was Peterson. Do you know a person by
the name of Peterson who was a member of local 101 ?
Mr. Cooke. Yes.
Mr. Tavenxer. What was his first name?
Mr. CooivE. I don't know his first name.
Mv. Tavenner. Do you know him when you see him ?
Mr. CooKE. Definitely.
Mr. Tamsnner, Did you see him here this morning?
Mr. CooKE. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Is he here now ?
Mr. Cooke. I don't see him.
Mr. Ta^t3nner. Will you get up and walk over here and see if you
can identify him when you see him ?
Mr. Cooke. No ; I don't see him.
Mr. Ta\\enner. You did see him this morning?
Mr. Cooke. Yes.
Mr. Ta^^nner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Walter. I have no questions.
Mr. MouEDER. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. Did I understand joii to say you were acquainted with
a man named A. J. Martin ?
Mr. Cooke. I say he was the other board member elected at the 1946
convention.
JNIr. Velde. Do you know anything more about him?
Mv. Cooke. Other than that he was former union representative at
Caterpillar Works, and subsequently he went into the international
union as an executive board member; that is about all.
Mr. Velde. Was he a member of the Communist Party?
Mv. Ci.OKE. That I can't say, offhand, because I only had association
witli my direct party unit.
Mr. Velde. This convention that you were talking about, was that
attended by others than Communist Party members?
Mr. Cooke. I assume they were, and, in fact, I couldn't say they were
all Communist Party members, and they were elected delegates from
each local union, ar.d they were elected on a per capita figure, so many
3734 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
for SO many dues-paying members, and they were elected by the local
union, in the local union election, and I couldn't definitely say they
were all party members, and I doubt it.
Mr. Velde. Did you know Leland Baker, also from Caterpillar?
Mr. Cooke. Yes; I remember; I recall him; yes.
Mr. Velde. That was at the convention; he was present?
Mr. Cooke. That is right.
Mr. Velde. Arthur Hendle ?
Mr. CooKE. No ; I don't recall him.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Cook, you said there were charges brought against
you to put you out of the Communist Party, and they charged you
with "rank opportunism"?
Mr. Cooke. I think that is party vernacular.
Mr. Velde. Do you know what is meant by that term by the Com-
munists, and how you took it?
Mr. Cooke. I have a rough idea.
Mr. Velde. Could you explain that to us ?
Mr. Cooke'. I would like to quote Shakespeare when he talked to
Julius Caesar — -if he was ambitious; if so, it was a grievous fault;
and if so, he had the answer.
Mr. Velde. Do you think there is anything wrong with being an
opportunist ?
Mr. Cooke. Definitely no; and I think what would our American
picture be today if we weren't opportunists.
Mr. Velde. That is all that I have, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jackson. Yon took the opportunity to ask questions, and that
is rank heresy, isn't it, to the Communist Party?
Mr. Cooke. That seems to be it. But yet, still in party vernacular,
they have what they call "democratic centralism," which, as I under-
stood it, was supposed to be anything that was put into practice had
to be dropped down below and bounced back up like a rubber ball, and
that was the technicality that I threw this farm equipment commission
into their faces: that this hadn't been tested under this democratic
centralism approach. "Therefore, how can you say that you are a
true Connnunist when you are not even practicing itT' And, you see,
that gave me the reason for posing that question, on the basis of demo-
cratic centralism, "and here you have done something completely
under cover that nobody knows about, and where are you going, and
how do you get this approach? This isn't even what you teach."
Mr. Jackson. Your testimony has been extremely interesting, in
that it has borne out the testimony of many other Negro witnesses we
have had before the committee, and especially yoiu" reference to the
role of the Communist Party when related to minority problems.
As I understand your testimony, when minority problems conflicted
with Communist doctrine, that the minority problem quickly went
overboard in favor of the party position.
Mr. Cooke. That is correct.
Mr. Jackson. Would you say that that was also true of labor prob-
lems when they conflicted?
Mr. CooKE. Definitely.
Mr. Jackson. When there was a conflict between Communist doc-
trine and anything else. Communist doctrine was the thing that, in the
final analysis, was given the attention?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3735
Mr. Cooke. That is right, even to this extent: That at one time,
sometime in 1945 or 1946, a question came up about this Chicago Star
newspaper tvhich was supposed to be the start of the Chicago Daily
Worker, but it was going to be called the Chicago Star. We were
asked to drop everything, grievances and everything, and try to get
as many subscriptions as we could to the Chicago Star. I mean, as
you point out, that is where you ignore labor problems in order to
put forth party ]:)olicy, or whatever the party wants to do.
]\Ir. Jackson. Well, your testimony is very interesting, Mr. Cooke,
and I want to thank you as an individual member of the committee.
You will unquestionably, as have so many witnesses who have been
before the committee and cooperated with the Congress, be called a
stool pigeon, and in that connection it might be well to point out that
nol)ody ever stool-pigeoned on the Boy Scouts, or on the YWCA, and
you have to stool pigeon on something of a criminal nature; and I
just wanted to get that into the record, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Cooke. I probably have been called worse names than that.
Mr. jA<nvsox. So has every member of the committee, and so w^e
have that question.
Mr. Tavenner. I have one more question.
Did you become acquainted with William L. Patterson?
Mr. Cooke. Yes; at one of the neighborhood branch meetings, that
is, this Wasliington Park Club, I got into a pretty hot argument with
him, and he was sent out to lecture the party people there, and he had
something in mind }x)r(lering on the Negro as a national group, that
the Negro should be considered as a national gToup, and comjiarable
to setting up a forty-ninth State for the Negro. And I disagreed with
his reasoning completely, and I so stated, and in fact, we got into a
serious debate there during the meeting, and I had to be cut off because
I opposed him so strongly, and he was supposed to be such an out-
standing figure that I was too little to be opposing him.
IMr. Tavenner. Well, now, if the Communist Party was trying to
sell its members on the theory that the Negro people should be set
aside and constitute a forty-ninth State, would that be in conflict
with all that you had stood for with regard to equal rights on the
part of the Negro ])eople '(
Mr. Cooke. That is right, and that was part of my background for
speaking of this lip service to minority questions, ''and then you turn
around and you want to start segregation, and hei-e we talk about
integration and you talk about segregation, and how can you talk out
of both sides of your mouth at the same time ?"
Mr. Tavenner. Of course, that has been explained to the com-
mittee in testimony before, as having been one of the pieces of propa-
ganda used by international communism to stir up distrust on the
part of Negro people in this country.
What was your observation about the manner in which the Com-
munist Party endeavored to treat the Negro race ?
Mr. Cooke. Well, my analysis of it was this: That, first of all, the
Communist Party, I mean as far as the labor movement w^as con-
cerned, was not interested in putting qualified Negroes in effective
positions in their international unions, and so forth. They wanted
more or less figureheads. That is to say, people that couldn't see both
sides of the question; people that coukln't make up their minds, their
3736 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
own minds ; and people that could be easily led, was tlie type of people
that they sponsored. And I am speakino; of my knowledge of Farm
Equipment, and they were the type of people that they sponsored for
higher offices.
Now, that was an observation of mine that I noticed over a period
of the 3 or 4 years I was in the labor game, the people they put on their
international executive board; and the minute, it appeared to me — •
and this is another approach to the party vernacular — the minute a
person started reasoning for himself and started standing up on given
rights, and so forth, he got a job done on him, and that is union slang.
But that was a job, he got a job done on him, and there was no question
about it.
I will have to say this : That the Communist Party is very efficient
in doing a job on an individual who is trying to run for office, and
I quote tliat from ex]>erience.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Did you at any time learn of your own knowledge
that William L. Patterson was a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Cooke. I would say it was my understanding.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I don't want you to state just what you
suspect.
Mr. CoOKE. If 3^ou ask me a question like that, no; I did not see his
party card, and people that I tell you would belong to the shop
unit, I didn't see their card. I assumed they were party members
because they attended these party meetings, and these partv meetings
were supposed to be exclusively for party members. And I say Bill
Patterson was one, too, because he talked at our neigiiborhood meeting,
and it was strictly for party people, and that is the reason I go on.
But as far as seeing party cards, no ; I didn't see anybody's.
]Mr. Tavenxer. Did you ever have an occasion to vnsit the Commu-
nist Party headquarters in Chicago?
Mr. CooKE. Yes; once.
Mr. Tavexner. What was tlie purpose of your visit?
Mr. Cooke. Well, I had had a few run-ins with what was known as
the district president of the Farm E(|uipment mteriuitional, named
Charles Lawson, and I had had quite a few run-ins as to how he was
administering policy, that is, union policy, in the lake district office.
Because I had had these run-ins, it got back to the party that Lawson
and I weren't clicking olT together, and so we were both called down
to Comnumist Party headquarters somewhere on the lake, and I guess
it would be Wells Street. And at that meeting. I went m, and there
was present Gil Green, Vickie Kramer, and I can't think of the others,
there were three or four other people present. And when we went in,
I was pretty hot and perturbed under the collar, because I was ex-
tremely outspoken, and I started blasting; and somebody held their
hand up, ''Quiet." A note was passed aroiuid that the room was wired,
"Don't say anything," that we would meet across the street.
Subsequently we left there and went over to the Steak House across
tlie street, and got a booth, and the. discussion took place as to the dif-
ferences between I and Charley Lawson and why we were at odds,
and so forth.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Lawson a member of the Communist Party?
jMr. Cooke. You can draw your own conclusions. We were called
down to the party headquarters, antl I didn't see his party card.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3737
Mr. Tavenner. Did the group have a name, that you were directed
to report to in Coniinunist lieadquarters ?
(Kepresentative Donald L. Jackson left hearing room.)
Mr. Cooio:. I think it was the central committee, and I wouldn't say
it had a direct name or anything like that. It is my opinion that it
was members of the central committee that I reported to. 1 never knew
the actual composition of the central committee, or anything like that.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Wood. Is there any reason why the witness should not be excused
from further attendance ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Wood. I join the other members of the committee in expressing
my personal appreciation and that of the committee for the informa-
tion you have given the committee and this testimony, and with our
sincere thanks you may be excused.
Mr. CooKE. Thank you.
Mr. Wood. We will take about a 10-minute recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. Wood. Let us have order,
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to recall Mr. Cook a moment.
With tlie chairman's permission, I would like for the record to
show instead of excusing Mr. Cook as a witness, that he be continued
under su.bpena until such time as he may be released by tlie chairman.
Mr. Wood. Very well, it is so ordered.
Whom do you call next, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Donald O. Spencer, will you come forward,
please ?
Mr._WooD. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
the evidence you shall give this subconnnittee shall be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Spencer. I do.
Mr. Wood. Have a seat. Are you represented by counsel?
Mr. Spencer. No.
Mr. Wood. If you determine during the progress of the hearing
that you need a coinisel, please xet it be known.
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You are Donald O. Spencer?
Mr. Spenci R. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD 0. SPENCEE
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Spencer ?
Mr. Spencer. Stanwood, Iowa, February 6, 1903.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your educational training ?
Mr. Spencer. I graduated from high school in 1920, and that is
about all of the schooling I had.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your record of emiDloyment in the
past, say, since 1985 ?
Mr. Spencer. I started at John Deere Plow Works in 1928.
Mr. Tavenner. And you are still employed there ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavfnner. During that period of time, have 3'OU been affili-
ated with the Farm Equipment Workers?
Ml'. Spencer. I was until I was expelled from the union.
24044 — 52— i)t. 1 9
3738 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. When were you expelled ?
Mr. Spencer. I was expelled in April, sometime during April of
194:9. I was a member from February 3, 1943, until that time, that is
when Ave organized the plant, under FE-CIO.
Mr. Velde. What was that date again ?
Mr. Spencer. February 3, 1913, that is when we received, you know,
our bargaining rights, under the FE-CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, is that the time of your expulsion from the
union, was it in 1949 that you were expelled from the union ?
Mr. Spencer. In 1949 I was expelled from the union, in April.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that about the time that the FE and the UE left
the CIO or were expelled from the CIO ?
Mr. Spencer. No; that is the spring before that happened, they
were expelled that November of the same year.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the reason for your expulsion ?
Mr. Spencer. I worked with the UAW because I felt as a good
many others did that the FE was going to get expelled from the CIO,
and I wanted to remain within the CIO, and I also wanted to see my
plant going up with other plants of the Deere chain with the UAW,
because they represent most of the Deere workers, and I thought we
would have a solider and better union.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period that you were a member of the
Farm Equipment Workers, did you become a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a member ?
Mr. Spencer. In 1943, in October.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. Well, ray dues were paid until the 1st of January
1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Who recruited you into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. Walter Rumsey encouraged me into the party, with
the endorsement and full knowledge of John Watkins.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that John Watkins?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir. He was district vice president of the FE
at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did Mr. Rumsey liold in the FE at
that time?
Mr. Spencer. He vras chairman of my local, 150, FE-CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. When you were recruited into the party, were you
assigned to a group or cell of the Communist Party?
Mr. Spencer. No; not at that time. There was just one group in
the district at that time to my knowledge, and that was the Quad
City group of the Conununist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position Avithin your Conununist
Party group ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mv. Tavenner. AVhat Avas that?
Mr. Spencer. I AA'as chairman of the industrial group, but not the
first year, that Avas later, AA'hen they organized into industrial groups.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat AA-ere youi- duties as chairman of the indus-
trial group ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3739
Mr. Spencer. To encourage menibership within the shops, and to
organize them along, so they would cooperate one group with the
other.
Mr. Tavexner. Were groups organized in various shops?
Mr. Spencer. There was an attempt made to organize them, but
not too successfully.
Mr. Tavenner. Explain to us just what the Communist Party
set-up was within FE, as far as you are able to describe it.
Mr. Spencer. Well, the group there was an industrial group that we
tried to organize, we had a few members in some of the shops and
w^e tried to expand on that. The industrial group was to represent
the shop workers, the industrial workers within the various shops
in the Quad Cities.
Mr. Taa-enner. How many groups or branches of the Communist
Party wei-e formed to your knowledge within that area ?
Mr. Spencer. Well, within the industrial group, they just remained
one large group because there w^ere a few in one shop and a few in
another, and others.
Mr. Tavenner. But all members of one branch or group of the
Party ?
]Mr. Spencer. Yes ; industrial group.
Mr. Ta"vt.nner. Did that group have a name?
Mr. Spencer. Nothing other than the industrial group of the Com-
nmnist Party, Quad City area.
Mr. Tam^^nner. Were the members confined to any particular local ?
Mr. Spencer. Well, the majority of them were within my own local.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. What was vour local?
Mr. Spencer. Local 150, FE-CIO, at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. In the performance of your duties as chairman of
the Industrial Group, did you do any recruiting or attempt to do any
recruiting of members?
Mr. Spencer. Well, no, I didn't; I tried to hold what we had and
get together with them and have discussions, because I was pretty
'busy mvself because I was a union officer at the time, you see,
Mr. Tavennj^r. Did you recruit any new members yourself?
Mr. Spencer. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they?
Mr. Spencer. Hazel Jones was one, and Bill Gardner; they both
-worked within the shop.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Are you acquainted with Harriet Leuth?
Mr. Spencer. She was a member of our executive board. That is
L-e-u-t-h. She was recording secretary of local 150.
Mr. Taa^enner. Whnt positions in the union were held by members
of your branch of the Communist Party?
Mr. Spencer. Well, I was vice chairman of the local, and chairman
of the grievance committee, and Walter Ru.msey was chairman of the
local, and Gus Gustofson was secretary-treasurer of the local, and
Hazel Jones was the stew^ard in the local, the steward of the tractor
drivers, and I believe those are the (mly executive positions within the
local that were held by members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did r]\at virtually assure Connnunist control of the
:activities of the union?
3740 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Spencer. A good share of it. I wouldn't say absolute control,,
but quite a bit of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Ray Teeple?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did he hold in the Communist Party 5.
if any?
Mr. Spencer. He was secretary at the time I joined, and he is the-
one that signed me up at his liouse, in Bettendorf, Iowa.
Mr. Tavenner. How v.as he employed at that time?
Mr. Spencer. He was working at the tank arsenal in Bettendorfy,
and he was chairman of the local tank-arsenal unit in Bettendorf.
Mr. Tavenner. You said "chairman,'' I believe.
Mr. Spencer. Maybe 1 should have said "president" of the local.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Joe Stern?
Mr. Spencer. Yes; I was.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did he hold in the union, if any.
Mr. Spencer. He did not hold any officer's job ; he was an active-
member for a short while of the Farmall local, previous to their strike
in 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve on any committee with Ray Teeple
and Joe Stern?
Mr. Spencer. Ray Teeple and Joe Stern and myself were the — L
think you Avould call it — the top conmiittee of the Q'lad City area.
Mr. Tavenner. Connnittee of Avhat ; in what organization?
Mr. Spencer. The Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Therefore Joe Stern was a fellow Communistt
Party member?
Mr. Spencer. He was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Olaf Leddel ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir ; I was. And he was a member of the party..
Mr. Tavenner. How was he employed, do you know?
Mr. Spencer. He was a watchmaker and a watch repairer.
Mr. Tavenner. He was not affiliated with your union?
Mr. Spencer. No ; he had a shop in his own home, where he repaired
watches.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Theo Kruse ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, I have known lier, and I Icnew her at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she affiliated with the Communist Party?
Mr. Spencer. She was in one of the city branches, the Rock Island
and Moline city group, they called it.
JNIr. Tavenner. Now, you have mentioned, I believe, that you were
recruited into the party by Ray Teeple ?
Mr. Spencer. I was signed up in Ray Teeple's home, and I was
recruited by Walter Rumsey, who was president of our local at the
time.
Mr. Tavenner. In what connection did you mention John Wilson?
Mr. Spencer. I haven't mentioned John Wilson yet,
Mr. Tavenner. I thought in your testimony at the time you were
recruited you mentioned a person by the name of Wilson.
Mr. Spencer. John Watkins; he approved my recruitment before
I was admitted.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3741
Mr. Tavennee. Did yoii ever attend meetings in the home of John
IVatkins ; Communist Party meetings ?
Mr. Spencer. No.
Mr. Ta^'e:nner. Were you acquainted with Catherine Hall, the wife
of John Watkins ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes; she wasn't the wife of John Watkins at that
time, though. She was working in the office, the district office of
TE-CIO, in Rook Island, at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Was slie a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. Well, she attended the meetings, and I never saw her
card, but she would have had to have been or she couldn't attend
the meetings.
Mr. Tavenxer. Were you acquainted with John Wilson, and I men-
tioned the name a few moments ago.
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he employed ; do you know ?
Mr. Spencer. The Red Jacket Pump Co. in Davenport at that time
in 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of your union ?
Mr, Spencer. No ; I think the A. F. of L. represented them, and I
am not sure, but I believe they represented the Red Jacket Pump Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he knowni to you as a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of your particular branch or cell ?
Mr. Spencer. No; he was a member of the Davenport branch, the
Iowa side of the river.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with his wife, IMabel Wilson ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, I w\as.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did she hold ?
Mr. Spencer. She was the secretary-treasurer, I believe, because
she collected dues for a while, in 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Dues in what organization?
Mr. Spencer. The Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenxer. For what area did she cover in the collection of
dues ?
Mr. Spex^^cer. At that time, the whole Quad City area, because that
was the only organization within the Quad City area at that time.
It was the Quad City branch or the Quad City group of the Iowa
bi"anch. You see, the tri -cities were taken in under the Iowa group.
Mr. Tavex'x^er. Were you acquainted with Murray Levine ?
Mr. Spexxer. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavex'ner. How was he employed?
Mr. Spex^cer. I am not sure, but I believe he was employed at the
Birtman Electric.
Mr. Tavex'x-^er. Was he known to you as a member of the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. Tavex^x^er. What is the basis of your statement that he was a
member ?
Mr. Spencer. Because he attended all of the meetings, and he
wouldn't have been allowed to attend unless he was a paid-up mem-
ber.
3742 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Ta\^exner. Were you acquainted with his wife, Sarah ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Was she a member of the party ?
Mr. Spencer. She attended meetings, too, as a paid-up member-
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Are you acquainted with Rex Wheelock?
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he employed?
Mr. Spencer. He was the district representative of the UE in the-
Quad Cit}^ district, representing the Minneapolis Moline Power Im-
plement Co., an electrical concern there in Moline, and Eagle Signal
Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, he was.
Mr. Taa-enner. Were you acquainted with Dorothy Hillyer?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, I was.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Was she a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. She was.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Did you become acquainted with Arthur Handele?!
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Spencer. What was his position, if you know ?
Mr. Spencer. He was the secretary of the Illinois district, waa
the understanding I had. He took care of the dues.
Mr. Tam^nner. The district of what?
Mr. Spencer. Of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Wei-e you acquainted with Jerry McHale?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, I was.
Mr. Ta\tenner. How was he emplo3^ed ?
Mr. Spencer. He was employed as a representative of the FE dis-
trict area in Rockylnnd. union representative and oi'ganizer, FE-CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Spencer. I have never seen his membership card, but he spoke
on party lines and attended party meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. John Milkovitch. What is the correct spelling of
the name?
Mr, Spencer. I tliink it is Milkovich. I think it is M-i-1, I am not
sui'e. k-o-v-i-t-c-h, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. How was he employed?
Mr. Spencer. I believe he worked for the East Moline Harvester,,
the Harvester group of the IHC, with a factory in East Moline.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, he was.
Mr. TA^^5NNER. Donald Tiegland.
Mr. SpiJncer. Yes; he has attended meetings of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you identifj^ him further as to his occupation,
or any position that he held?
Mr. Spencer. He worked in the East Moline works of Harvester
and I believe he still works there.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he at any time during his party membership
hold any political position ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3743
Mr. Spencer. He was State representative and I don't know just
what term it was, it was during the war there, and he was elected to
one term in the house of representatives at Springfield.
Mr. Tavenner. Harold Fisher.
Mr. Spencp:r. I knew him, yes.
]Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party to your
knowledge ^
Mr. Spencer. He was ; he attended the meetings and I have never
seen his card, or anything of that kind, but he attended closed meet-
ings of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. A Gus Gustaf son.
Mr. Spencer. Yes ; he was a member, and he M^as a member of our
local, and he was the secretary-treasurer of local 150.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what union ?
Mr. Spencer. FE-CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any meetings of the Communist
Party outside of your own shop ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes ; I attended other meetings, and I have attended
meetings in Des Moines, and I was there as a delegate to the con-
vention.
JNIr. Tavenner. What year was that?
Mr. Spencer. That was the spring of 1945, I believe, either 191:1: or
the spring of 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was that convention held?
Mr. Spencer. In Des Moines, Iowa.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether that was the convention at
wliich action was taken regarding the reactivation of the Communist
Party from the political association to the Communist Party proper?
Mr. Spencer. No, I don't believe it was; I think tliat was too early,
because as I understand it they returned to the Comnmnist Party
about midyear of 1945. I think this was prior to that reshuffling of
the party.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall anything of particular importance
that happened at that convention?
Mr. Spencer. No; just the regular business of the election of people
for their respective terms and I don't think there were any outstand-
ing events there.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a meeting at the Sherman Hotel?
Mr. Spences. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. In Chicago?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, I did.
Mr. Ta\^nner. AVhat was the nature of the meeting?
Mr. Spencer. Well, it was a meeting to sort of iron out the diffi-
culties between various labor unions and it was a sort of a let-your-
hair-down and criticize the methods and sort of picking out the best
ai'rangements in conducting strikes and bargaining.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of that meeting ?
Mr. Spencer. That was during — sometime during the winter of
1944, or the spring of 1945, and I am not certain as to the date of
the meeting.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Did you know the purpose of the meeting before
you went there ?
3744 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Spencer. No ; I didn't even know about the meeting until about
5 minutes before the meeting took phice. You see, we were in before
the War Labor Board, Walter Rumsey and myself, on contract issues,
until about noon, and we had to meet with the War Labor Board
at 10 o'clock that morning, and when we returned to the international
office on Randolph Street we w^ere told of the meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Aiid you say the purpose of this meeting was to
straighten out certain difficulties between the unions?
Mr. Spencer. Yes; there were some mistakes that, as I gathered,
had been made and it was a sort of a criticism, constructive criticism,
effort on the part of the various people there, you know, to try to iron
out some of the hard feelings that had been generated from the mis-
takes made.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it also the purpose of the meeting to adopt
policies for the future conduct of the unions with respect to the things
that had caused the trouble ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes; there was a discussion pro and con as to certain
actions that had taken place by people present there, and I believe
there was a little feud going on between a couple of those present
and there was a certain amount of debate on each side pro and con
and then there was an attempt to pacify and bring both in line.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not going to ask you the nature of any diffi-
culties that might have cropi)ed up between unions, or within the
unions. I am not interested in the labor problems, as such, as far
as this hearing is concerned, but I do want to know to what extent, if
any, the Communist Party was brought into the settling of any of
those disputes.
Mr. Spencer. Well, John Schmies was chairing the meeting.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Who was that?
Mr. Spencer. John Schmies. I don't know that he held any job
in the union, he didn't to my knowledge, at least,
Mr. Tavenner. He was not a union member but he was chairman
of this meeting ?
Mr. Spencer. He chaired the meeting ; yes, sir. And Robert Travis
was there.
Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment, do you know whether or not that
individual w^as a full-time employed Communist Party functionary?
Mr. Spencer. I don't know as to that, I have never seen his mem-
bership or credentials, and Robert Travis was there, and he was not a
union member to my knowledge, at least.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he was a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Spencer. I do not know positively, and I never saw his mem-
bership card, but I feel certain he would not have been at that meet-
ing if he had not been, because they were very careful who attended.
Mr. Moulder. How did they identify themselves? You say they
were very careful, and how did they check on them ?
Mr. Spencer. You didn't get in unless somebody that knew you
very well, and recommended you to the group.
Mr. Moulder. You mean at the door?
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. Did they have a doorman ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3745
Mr. Spencer. Yes, there was a man at the door, and also they were
tokl that they could attend, and I was told about 5 minutes before the
meeting.
Mr. Moulder. Did you have to identify yourself with a Communist
card of some method in order to be admitted ?
Mr. Spencer. No; they just said he is a good fellow, we can let
him in on this meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you name other persons who were present and
took part in that meeting ?
Mr. Spencer. Grant Oakes was present and Jerry Fielde, and John
Watkins.
Mr. Ta\T3Nner. You saw Jerry Fielde here in this hearing room
this afternoon?
Mr. Spencer. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. And he was one of the three who refused to answer
as to whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. That is the same person.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir.
Mr. Velde. The same is true of Grant Oakes ? You saw him ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes; I saw him. And Walter Rumsey and Morrie
Childs.
Mr. Velde. Is that Morris Childs?
Mr. Spencer. It might be; they call him Morrie. They called
him ]\Iorrie at the meeting.
Mr. Velde. It is a matter of public knowledge, Mr. Chairman, that
Morris Childs was organizational director for the Communist Party
of the State of Illinois. Did he belong to any union that was repre-
sented at that meeting?
Mr. Spencer. I don't know as he did, and I didn't know him as a
union member, I will put it that way.
Mr. Tavenner. All right, will you proceed ? Do you recall whether
Arthur Hendle was present?
Mr. Spencer. I am almost sure he was there, and I would not say
positively but I am almost sure he was there, and that has been some
time ago, and it is pretty hard to remember all of those things.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me see if you can recall the names of any others.
Mr. Spencer. Well. I was told that a man by the name of Sorensen
was there, and Ernie DeMaio.
Mr. Tavenner. Ernest DeMaio?
Mr. Spencer. They were identified as such to me, and I don't know
them, I don't know the men personally.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether John Watkins was there?
Mr. Spencer. Yes ; I named him as being there.
Mr. Tavenner. You did name him?
Mr. Spencer. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Those are all that you can recall ?
Mr. Spencer. Right at the present time, that is all that I can recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Did all of the persons present participate in the
discussion ?
Mr. Spencer. No ; a good share of them were there as observers and
to learn, and I was told that possibly I might learn by attending that
meeting, and they were permitting me to be there for that purpose.
3746 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether John Schmies, who was the
chairman of the meeting, took part in the discussion ?
Mr. Spencer. No ; he summed up the arguments after the debating
had gone to a certain length, and then he pointed out the good parts
of each man's argument and pointed out the flaws in each man's argu-
ment, and recommended a policy to be held to in the future.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that policy adopted by the group i
Mr. Spencer, Yes, I believe everybody concurred in it, and left
there with a feeling that that was the thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Then actually it was the Communist Party func-
tionary, the chairman, who analyzed the situation and picked out wdiat
he thought was the good ?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, he had the final word on it.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was adopted '(
Mr. Spencer. Yes, there w^as no arguments or rebuttals to his final
statement before the meeting broke up.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the specific result of the meeting?
Mr. Spencer. Well, it was rather remote for me, it was a mistake,
and Ernie DeMaio had received some criticism and he had been a little
bit rash, I believe in some of his strike actions or something, and one
of the other men present there had criticized him for it and they had
gotten into an argument and to ])reserve unity I guess that was the
purpose of the meeting, they thought the}- should get together and
discuss it and try to iron it out.
Mr. Taa'enner. Well, Ernest DeMaio was an organizer within
the UE.
Mr. Spencer. I believe he was at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the unions represented, all unions within the
TTE, or were they unions that were also in the FE ?
Mr. Tavenner. There were various individuals from different
unions, and I don't know where Sorensen came from and there were a
few there from FE, the ones that I mentioned.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Herbert March in attendance?
Mr. Spence. Yes, and I don't believe I mentioned him, and I was
told he was present.
Mr. Tavenner. He represented the Packing-House Workers, did he
not?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, he was, I was told, he was identified to me as being
present and I don't know the man.
Mv. Tavenner. Did vou attend any other meetings at the Sherman
Hotel?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, I was called into Chicago to attend a meeting at
the Sherman Hotel in 194-1:, in the fall, and Walter Rumsey was called
too, but he didn't make the trip, and I was told to be at the Sherman
Hotel.
Mr. Velde. You say you w^ere told to come to the Sherman Hotel.
Who issued the call and who told you to go there, and how did it come
to your knowledge ?
Mr. Spencer. Well, Walter Rumsey asked me to make the trip and
it turned out that he couldn't make it, and we were both to go, and I
don't really know who issued the call.
Mr. Veede. You do not know how Walter Rmiisey got his notifica-
tion of it?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3747
Mr. SrENCP:R. Not for positive, no.
Mr. Velde. I am talkintr about the second meeting now, and was the
same thin«jj true of the first meeting^ The first meeting that you had
at Sherman Hotel here, do you recall how you were notified of that
meeting (
Mr. Spekcer. Yes, Walter Rumsey told me that we were supposed
to go to that meeting, about 5 minutes before it took place.
Mr. VrxDE. Do you know how he found out that you were supposed
to go to it ?
Mr. Spexcer. Not absolutely, I had my own opinion on that, but I
can't positively say because I know who Walter Rumsey was working
for at that time, and he was working out of the district office of the FE.
Mr. Velde. What is your opinion of how he was notified?
Mr. Spencer. I think John Watkins approved of us being there or
we wouldn't have been there.
Mr. Tavenner. I think I should state that Mr. Rumsey, IVIr. Wal-
ter Rumsey, has been before the committee in executive session, and
has fully cooperated with the committee, but he could not be here
today because of a serious operation which he has undergone. He has
fully cooperated with the committee.
Who were present at this meeting?
Mr. Spencer. Well, this was a very small meeting, and I was called
in there and told to report to Sherman Hotel, and when I got there
at the desk I was told to go up to a room on the eighth floor. I went
up there, and there were only three people present at that meeting
and it was Kate Hall, John Watkins, and Jerry Fielde.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of the meeting?
Mr. Spencer. Well, it seemed tliat there was some criticism of the
disruptive actions, so-called disruptive actions of Joe Stern at that
time and I was given to understand I was called in to testify against
him and I don't really know myself what the real purpose of the
meeting was, except for tlie words I have just mentioned, but I asked
if Joe Stern were present and he wasn't, and so I refused to testify,
and I said if he were there, then I would discuss the man but not with
him absent.
]Mr. Tavenner. What kind of meeting was this? What was the
purpose of your testifying?
Mr. Spencer. It seems that he was causing some embarrassment to
the farm equipment workers of the district, and that is the way I
understood it and that there must be something done to get him moved
out of that territoiT. It seems that he was too militant and as a
Communist within the farm equipment local at that time, and there
was fear of repercussions among the membership, that they might
possibly lose the local because it was stirring up some antagonism
among the local members at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, if the local members had known
of the true Communist membership of Joe Stern
Mr. Spencer. They did know about it, that was the trouble, you
see.
Mr. TA^^SNNER. They learned about it?
Mr. Spencer. He was very much in the open, and very militant
about it, and he urged them to buy the Daily Worker, and the Sunday
Worker, and urged membership within the Comnumist Party.
3748 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Tavenner. Then the purpose of this meeting was to get Com-
munist action?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir,
Mr. Tavenner. To remove Joe Stern?
Mr. Spencer. To get liim transferred to another district so there
would be no further embarrassment caused.
INIr. Tavenner. His identity had become disclosed to the public, and
it was no longer possible- for the Communist Party to accomplish its
objectives.
^ii*. Spencer. That is right, I gather that a great number of the
members of local 108, Farmall works, possibly put the pressure on the
district office to get him out of the territory and they felt that some
step must be taken to alleviate the situation.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, do you consider from your experience in the
party, that if the rank and file membership of the union were fully
informed about the Communist Party membership of their leaders,
and officers, that they would remove those people from office, or at
least not return them to office if they knew the facts?
Mr. Spencer. Well, I don't know, I believe if they knew what the
Communist Party stood for they would. I served as an officer in our
local for better than 2 years with my identity known, and I made no
bones about it, and I admitted I was a Communist at the time, and I
was respected for it because the membership will check up on you and
see if you are working to their interest or the other fellow's. I be-
lieve as they became better informed, though, I don't believe a person
would sail under those colors very long. He might get through one
term but he would never get to the second one, if the membership was
fully aware of the facts.
Mr. Tavenner. Why did you withdraw from the Communist Party ?
Mr. Spencer. You see, when I went into the Connnunist Party, it
was in 1943, they were still the Communist Party then, but before I
had time to get acquainted with them they went over into the Com-
munist Political Association, and I was told at that time that I could
become a more efficient union officer and they had something to help
union officers, the guiding influence that would help with your bargain-
ing on your contracts, and I was chairman of the bargaining commit-
tee and vice chairman of the local, and as we had a new local and
a union was new to me and as a new union officer I didn't want to miss
any bets on helping to make our local strong and preserve it that way.
I really felt that possibly I might be able to serve the membership
best by getting all of the information I could. But as time went
on, I didn't think I got wise to what was going on until after they
dropped the Communist Political Association, and when the war ended
then there was no more of this "cooperate for full production," and that
stuff, and it went back to the party line. To bring it more at home,
though, our local had taken a strike vote and we had, an issue there
of a nickel an hour that the company refused to honor the decision
of the War Labor Board on, and they awarded us a nickel an hour
back pay, and the company ignored that for a period of about 15
months. So we took a strike vote under the Smith-Connally Act in
June of that year, and that was 1945 and that is about the time they
swung out of the Communist Political Association back into the Com-
munist Party, you see. And they carried better than 9U percent of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3749
them at the time, and our time expired under the 60-day provision and
Ave couldn't get any satisfaction out of the company at all, and they just
sat back and they wouldn't talk a nickel at all, and it wasn't even
considered. So w^e held a meeting that night, and we decided that we
would strike the next morning, and our GO days were up today, but
tomorrow morning we strike, and we go into the plant and we get our
work clothes and take them home and launder them and the strike is
officially on.
Well, the membership had just finished voting unanimously for the
timing of the strike, and Kate Hall burst into our union hall and told
us that we couldn't do that. We had already taken action, the mem-
bership had acted unanimously for settling the time of the strike after
we had waited out our legal period. We went on the street next day,
and we were called on the carpet, Walter Rumsey and myself, night
after night, until 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning, and told that we had
'to take our membership back into the plant, and that International
Harvester would set a pattern and they were going to strike in January.
And we could ride on their coattails. We argued that w^e had one issue
there, that was that 5 cents an hour and the membership wanted it
bad enough "to strike for it and w^e were going to stay out until we got it.
Well, that kept up, with lost sleep and trying to direct a strike for
about, I would say a month, and we went on strike in September, maybe
a little longer than a month, and we finally got disgusted and we told
them that as long as the party was not going to work along wath the
people, working people, they were supposed to be the working people's
friend, and they led us to believe it and if they were going to work
against the efforts of the people we represented, that our responsibility
to our membership in our minds and the people we worked with over
a period of years, was much greater than our obligations to the Com-
munist Party, and they could do as they pleased about other situations,
and we would handle this one.
That was along in the latter part of October, or the first part of
November, I believe, some time in there, and that was our split with
the Communist Party, Walter Rumsey and myself. My dues were
paid until the first of the year, 1946, but that was the finish, as far as
1 was concerned, watli the Communist Party.
I couldn't see that, selling out people, and I had already worked in
that plant better than 15 years then, and it didn't go with me, because
they had always said that the Communist Party was the champion
of the working people. How can you be the champion of some people
that have voted unanimously they want something that the Govern-
ment has awarded them and have somebody come along and say, "You
o;et back like a bunch of rats into your respective machines, and we
will take care of the thing for you"?
We had already made our decision, and we won our strike, too, and
we were on the street until December 10, but we got the nickel, and a
iew other things.
Mr. Tavenxer. In other words, it was the effort of the Communist
Party to attempt to use your union for its own purposes?
Mv. Spencer. Yes, to demonstrate their power. It wasn't just mem-
bers of the Farm Equipment Workers' Union that contacted us and
upbraided us. We were on the carpet in the regional office, and w^e
were on the carpet in Davenport and in Moline, and they even cor-
3 9999 05445 4556 ^^ ^^^ ^^^ Chicago area
nerecl us in taverns and read the riot act to us until we got desperate-
you can't conduct a strike and be up until 2 or 3 o'clock in the morn-
ing— and we told them v.diere they could go to, and made it stick.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you have a meeting at one time in a hotel
in Davenport?
Mr. Spencer. That was a meeting between the Farm Equipment
Workers' and Farmers' Union.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party endeavor to exercise any^
control or influence over that meeting?
Mr. Spencer. Yes ; Gil Green was there, and he was the chairman of
the Illinois branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Branch of the Communist Party?
Mr. Spencer. Yes; and Warren Batterson, whose offices were in
Omaha, and he was head of the Iowa branch of the Comnumist Party,,
and he was present.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the way in which the Communist Party '
endeavored to influence your meeting?
Mr. Spencer. Well, there were talks, and I understand there were-
officers of the Farmei-s' Union of Iowa, and I. believe there were some
members from Illinois, and there were talks there on cooperation
between the industrial unions and the farmers' unions for the better-
ment of both groups.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the names of any of the persons pres-
ent at that meeting who were not members of the organizations in-
volved but who were members of the Comnumist Party, besides Gil:
Green ?
Mr. Spencer. AVell, there was Joe Stern, Gil Green, and Warren
Batterson, who were not members of either organization at that time,
I believe.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Warren Batterson — do you know whether or not he.
was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. SpEiscER. His name is on my
Mr. Tavenner. His name is signed to your Communist Party card?"
Mr. Spencer. That is his name there ; yes, sir.
]SIr. Tavenner. Will you look at this and identify that card as your-
Comnumist Party card ?
Mr. Spencer. That is my Comnumist membership for the last two
quarters of 1945, and it is signed by Warren Batterson, November 6,.
11)45, on the back.
Mr. Tavenner. What official positions are under his signature?
Mr. Spencer. I never paid any attention to that, and I just knew
him as an officer of the Communist Party. The signatui'e of the State
chairman — that is what it says, of the Communist Party, because the
Comnumist stamp is there, too.
Ml'. Tavenner. Will you please read, or I Avill rend into the record
the number. It is 01,797, issued in the name of Donald Spencer.
Ml-. Walter. Would that indicate that there were (51.797 members
in this particular area?
JMr. Tavenner, No; I think that that is nationally. Those cirds
v,re issued on a national basis, and I suppose my card happened to be
that one from the top. and that wouldn't be i\\\y indication how many
members there might be in the country, because there must be several
more bundles sent out after those were used up, you see.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA 3751
]\Ir. Jackson. AVhat was your understanding of the nienibership ?
Mr. Spencer. 1 understood it was about 75,000 at the time I was a
member; in the country, 1 mean, not in this area.
Mr. Jackson. In the country, about 75,000. And what about the
Chicago area ?
Mr. Spencer. I don't know anything about the Chicago area.
Mr. Jackson. You had no information on the membership figures
there ?
Mr. Spencer. No.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. A\ere you acquainted with a person by the name of
Everri, E-v-e-r-r-i '^
Mr. Spencer. I don't believe I know the man. It seems I have heard
that name, but I can't identify it with any particular place or person.
(Representative Francis E. Walter left the hearing room.)
]\Ir. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
]\Ir. Moulder. I have a question.
"\Aliile you have referred to it, your testimony is you have not been
able to identify these people as Communists, as you did not see their
card, but by their attendance at these meetings?
Mr. Spencer. They were closed meetings.
j\Ir. JMouLDER. They were closed meetings?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. IMouLDER. And you further identify them as being Communists
as a result of their active ])artici])ation in the proceedings that were
had at the meetings on Communist atfairs?
Mr. Spencer. Yes, because I knew the Commmiist Party line well
enough to know that that was the discussion.
Mr. Frazier. I have no questions.
Mr. Velde. Well, how do you draw your conclusion that it was
])rob:ibly a Connviunist Party meeting, and I am referring to the one
at the Sherman Hotel here in 1944?
Mr. Spencfr. Well, because I know that I couldn't have gotten into
that meeting if I hadn't been a member of the party, and I believe the
other fellows wouldn't have been there, either, because there is no
discrimiui'tion — wluit I mean is, all are treated the same in that
respect. You either are or you don't get in, because problems of that
nature are not taken up with outsiders.
Mr. Veijde. And you take for granted that someone either recog-
nized you or Walter Runisey when you came into the door, and some-
one recognized you as comrades or as Communists, and you were able
to get in ?
^Ir. Spencer. Yes, sir, because there were enough there from the
international office of the Farm Equipment Workers right here in
Chicago that knew us, you see.
Mr. Velde. What is your opinion with reference to Grant Oakes
at that time : That he was or Avas not a member of the Connnunist
Party?
Mr. Spencer. Well, I will sav the same about him as I said about
the rest of them : I never saw his membership card, but I know he
wouldn't have been there and he wouldn't have been allowed to have
been there unless he was.
3752 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE CHICAGO AREA
Mr. Velde. You say Arthur Hendle was at that meeting ?
Mr, Spencer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. Where did he live at the time that he was district
organizer ?
Mr. Spencer. I believe he was at Peoria at that time.
Mr. VelBe. Do you know where he is now ?
Mr. Spencer. No ; I don't. The last contact I had with Arthur
Hendle was in 194:6, in the spring, and he came down there and tried
to get me back into the party again.
Mr. Velde. What did he say to you on that occasion ; do you recall?
Mr. Spencer. He said I didn't need to worry about belonging to
the party ; there were no records being kept, and he kept the records
himself.
Mr. Velde. We certainly appreciate your testimony and your con-
tribution to this committee,
Mr. Spencer. Thank you.
Mr. Jackson. I have nothing more, except to join with Mr. Velde
in expressing my thanks and appreciation to the witness.
Mr. Wood. I voice that same sentiment, and I am sure I speak
for every member of the committee, for the contribution you have
made to the investigation here, and to the people as a whole in this
country.
Is there any reason why we should not excuse the witness from
the subpena?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Wood. Thank you, and you are excused.
The committee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at
10 : 30 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5:15 p. m., a recess was taken until 10:30 a. m.
Thursday, September 4, 1952.)
(No'rii. — The chairman and each member of the committee and the
committee staff expresses appreciation and sincere thanks for the
courteous cooperation extended to the committee in its work in Chi-
cago by the Chicago Police Department, the radio, and the news-
papers.
Gratitude and appreciation are also expressed to the officials and
employees of the Federal Building in Chicago for their courtesies
and assistance during these hearings.)
X
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